I know a lot of people at work who are "the vocal minority" only problem is they are having to work an extra job now so they dont have time to sit here and chat. 
Cry For Cost Cuts Grows Louder
- Thread starter BoeingBoy
- Start date
PITbull
Veteran
USfliboi,
I will indulge you once last time, you are foolish. Open your eyes and see what is happening around you. Take the "fear" out of your soul, managment has you, only because you allow it.
We won't. Reasonability will be achieved. They can close or they can sell off the sweat shop. Employees can not concede and that will be the order of the day by the majority.
Like it or lump it, #3 concessions totaling $1.5 Billion is not acheivable in any environment. We are not an employee group of 47,000 employed. When we were, we were asked $1 Billion and gave it, along with additional $200 million for the winter. Our ranks are now reduced by alomost 45%. $1.5 billion is not condusive to sustaining life form on this property.
I will indulge you once last time, you are foolish. Open your eyes and see what is happening around you. Take the "fear" out of your soul, managment has you, only because you allow it.
We won't. Reasonability will be achieved. They can close or they can sell off the sweat shop. Employees can not concede and that will be the order of the day by the majority.
Like it or lump it, #3 concessions totaling $1.5 Billion is not acheivable in any environment. We are not an employee group of 47,000 employed. When we were, we were asked $1 Billion and gave it, along with additional $200 million for the winter. Our ranks are now reduced by alomost 45%. $1.5 billion is not condusive to sustaining life form on this property.
Seems to me that a $1.5 billion/year concessions demand is something so outrageous that it can only have been designed to be completely untenable to labor writ-large*, thus giving management (and their strange bedfellows) another opportunity to whine about how it's all labor's fault.
I wonder if Siegel and Bronner are just completely out to lunch by being so completely unrealistic or they have some other game a-foot that they perceive to somehow be aided by the chaos they have created by their ridiculous and insulting demands. Or perhaps they are engaged in a combination of incompetence and sneakery (a particularly dangerous game!).
Of course an quick last grab for cash has plenty of precedence in the history of the corporate world.
-Airlineorphan
*Yes, I know, ALPA leadership sez they are on board and moving forward. Yada yada yada.... I'd be surprised if the rank-and-file pilots will ratify any of this nonsense if given a chance to vote. AFA seems pretty unlikely and folks in CWA, IAM and TWU sound pretty reticent as well. $1.5 billion in cuts is not a viable business plan, it sounds more like a plan to gut an airline.
I wonder if Siegel and Bronner are just completely out to lunch by being so completely unrealistic or they have some other game a-foot that they perceive to somehow be aided by the chaos they have created by their ridiculous and insulting demands. Or perhaps they are engaged in a combination of incompetence and sneakery (a particularly dangerous game!).
Of course an quick last grab for cash has plenty of precedence in the history of the corporate world.
-Airlineorphan
*Yes, I know, ALPA leadership sez they are on board and moving forward. Yada yada yada.... I'd be surprised if the rank-and-file pilots will ratify any of this nonsense if given a chance to vote. AFA seems pretty unlikely and folks in CWA, IAM and TWU sound pretty reticent as well. $1.5 billion in cuts is not a viable business plan, it sounds more like a plan to gut an airline.
PITbull
Veteran
:down: It seems that is the way all management at US is...even at PSA...we are set up to fail every day.
BoeingBoy said:
These figures are meaningless. The world changed after 9/11/01...
how about some figures showing 2001-2004 changes. You can't go forward looking in the rear view mirror.
http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/org/...new/swelbar.pdf
Interesting review of LCC's and mainline. This is a powerpoint that may take a while to load if you dont have high speed connx.
Here are some current figures from ATA
http://www.air-transport.org/econ/d.aspx?nid=1042
The most dramatic short-term (Q2 2001-Q2 2003) performance was by American, which, without a meaningful change in average hop, decreased its CASM by 19% from 13.2¢ to 10.8¢ and is now somewhere in the 9's
Southwest's labor costs have been climbing since 1997, going from around 38% of total operating expense to 45% in 2003
This is kinda my feeling to-- they have some other game afoot.airlineorphan said:
At the risk of offending anyone here, because y'all certainly derserve better, I think management already has a shut-down scenario planned and even a time frame (if not an exact date) already in mind. I think the plan now is to propose something so onerous they know it won't be palatable to the unions and they know the unions will reject it, so when they do shut the doors they can just blame labor.
Of course ALPA threw them for a loop by actually accepting the pathetic MDA terms. But, it just means a little more cash on hand for them when the day of reckoning finally arrives.
Your CEO might have another view on what is obtainable. Your unions have two choices with their future:PITbull said:
--Concessions
--Liquidation
The logical and rational employees will elect to save their jobs at the present moment. This will enable them to look for other employment versus collecting unemployment. Pitbull you clearly do not understand what is happening with your company and have allowed your emotions to take over rational thinking. You should realize that you can't win against the company. I have forgotten his name but the head of your companies labor dept is doing what they were paid to do.
I have always said from my days posting on planebusiness that Pilots and Mechanics should be paid the highest salaries. Why? They have a skill that others do not posses. You can rant all day long about how qualified flight attendants are in society but very few employers will hire them based upon 20 years serving drinks and pushing a cart up the aisle. They do have the CPR training but this was not a requirement unless they plan to become a lifeguard or work in the medical field. If you don't believe me, then contact your local temp agency and ask them what type of jobs does a 20 year flight attendant w/o a college degree qualifies for in today's business world. I know that you will argue that they have college degrees, if so, then they should seek other employment. Chip has stated many times that if one is not happy with his/her job then they should quit. I agree with his opinion on this topic. Since you claim that salaries are at poverty levels, then I would think that these flight attendants would be have the monetary funds to splurge on exotic trips. It would make more sense to get a much better paying job and use that extra money to take vacations.
Now to the reservations agents, you know that I have stated many times that I support the airlines in outsourcing this job function. Pitbull, I believe that you mentioned that your relative or friend is a manager of a call center for a travel company. How much do they pay their phone operators with a low/high salary? I believe that $9 is a very low number to pay someone and would recommend a salary compensation of $13 to answer phones. You will not find $20 phone agents for any company outside of the airlines. You can look at the grocery store clerks in California that have been on strike for the last four months. They are paid an average salary of $15 hour and do not pay anything for their health insurance other than a $10 co-pay. They are upset that their company wants them to pay $40 per month. All medical insurance costs has increased and this is another example of union employees that are used to the gravy train and need to wake up and see what is out on the outside world. If I was Dave, I would outsource all reservation jobs to India if the unions did not agree to a 25% salary reduction.
My message to the Pilots, you might not have any choice but to accept lower wages. Unless you have a college degree w experience outside the aviation industry, your job market skills are limited. Not many employers want to hire 50+ y/o pilots when they prefer hiring recent college graduates. The $150K salaries were nice while they lasted but the industry has changed for the worse. I know many people who would be happy flying planes at $80K, you might need to sell your summer home and boat but you can have a luxury lifestyle at that salary.
Now to the IAM members, It is my opinion that you need new union leadership. What have they done for you lately? Sure, they have gone to court and distributed stern letters to its members how they are doing all possible to protect jobs. Maybe this is why you guys/gals were confused last time when you voted. I recommend that you make your own decisions and stand up for your jobs versus having the fierce union leaders Buffy & Ford who appear to be doing an awful job. 700UW & Delldude, your both need to stop drinking the IAM koolaid and make your own decisions. You should look at the 3rd party outsource companies and their average salaries and make an offer to the company that you will work for $16-18 hr if they company will guarantee your jobs for the next 10 years. Now is the time to strike a deal to save your jobs.
Pineybob, you sit on this board all day long yelling to the employees what they should and should not do. I can't ever tell what side of the fence you are on each day. I was a US1 for 4 out 5 years but with the reduce service out of LGA, I have chosen to fly CO in the last year or so. You can call CO and they will give you status on their carrier. I have the most respect for Art@ISP as he is the example of a loyal customer. If you are not happy with a product, then go to another airline Bob and stop complaining about how Siegel & Baldanza are affecting the dividend mile members.
The days of gate agents are also numbered. Kiosks & gate readers will soon replace many of these agents. Don't blame Dave but blame technology. You complain how you can't live on poverty wages $13 but Jetblue and Airtran employees appear to be doing fine. I don't see them quiting their jobs because they can't live on these low salaries. It is called getting out of credit card debt, not having that extra bedroom house in the gated community or that 3rd car for the weekend. Greenspan stated this week that something must be done with Social Security to keep the program up and running. Why were your parents (60-70's) able to save money but this generation has not learned how to yet? Because they are living in a world of CREDIT. I know many families that have an total family income of 50K that live a modest middle class home, while they might only have 2 cars, one is used, and have a house that costs $100K, they are able to provide for their families. So the people on this board who are complaining about the $13 hr salaries, I ask you this question. Why are you still working at these wages? It is a fair question if the grass is greener on the other side.
My closing advice is for all unions to give at least 25% in concessions to save your jobs.
Uinvestor,
I must say you are either just trying to get our bowels in an uproar or you are not from the the USA. Some of the things that you said are totally un-American. To even suggest that any company in the USA out-source is way out of line. What is happening today with companies out-sourcing is despicable! The work needs to stay in this country and keep OUR citizens employed. There is no need to support other countries when it is desperately needed here. As youngblood stated in another post, the middle class is soon to be extinct. There will be the exceedingly rich upper class and a lower class living at poverty levels. I, and many others that I know, are repulsed when we call a customer service number and are connected with a rep. in another country who can not speak english and can barely communicate. You may as well hang up the second they answer. Those are "our" jobs and "our" money and it does turn off customers! The government needs to do something about it now!
As far as the Res. Agents "answering phones" as you stated. We are not an answering service! We are sales and customer services reps. We bust our butts trying to sell US and believe me, anymore, we DO have to SELL US not just take orders. We are in most cases the first contact that potential passengers have with this company. We are their first impression and we have to try to make it a good one. Not to say that this company hinders us from doing that in every way that they can. We are the sales force, the problem solvers and the whipping post for this company. We service our customers and serve them well to the best of our ablilities considerering the tools that we're given to do the job. They want to out-source...let them. We'll see how great the customer service is then. As far as USAirways.com goes...God help this industry if it is going to depend on the average person booking on line. That is one of our greatest problems. Half of our calls are trying to sort out the screw-ups that the novice "home reservationists" make day in and day out. I went through 10 weeks of intense training to become a General Res. agent and Reissue agent. How is the general public going to be adept at doing it with a simple computer and 10 fingers? There is more to this job than "answering calls"! Yourself and others including Dave are very quick to make judgement and you really have NO clue! Keep your un-American thoughts to yourself!
I must say you are either just trying to get our bowels in an uproar or you are not from the the USA. Some of the things that you said are totally un-American. To even suggest that any company in the USA out-source is way out of line. What is happening today with companies out-sourcing is despicable! The work needs to stay in this country and keep OUR citizens employed. There is no need to support other countries when it is desperately needed here. As youngblood stated in another post, the middle class is soon to be extinct. There will be the exceedingly rich upper class and a lower class living at poverty levels. I, and many others that I know, are repulsed when we call a customer service number and are connected with a rep. in another country who can not speak english and can barely communicate. You may as well hang up the second they answer. Those are "our" jobs and "our" money and it does turn off customers! The government needs to do something about it now!
As far as the Res. Agents "answering phones" as you stated. We are not an answering service! We are sales and customer services reps. We bust our butts trying to sell US and believe me, anymore, we DO have to SELL US not just take orders. We are in most cases the first contact that potential passengers have with this company. We are their first impression and we have to try to make it a good one. Not to say that this company hinders us from doing that in every way that they can. We are the sales force, the problem solvers and the whipping post for this company. We service our customers and serve them well to the best of our ablilities considerering the tools that we're given to do the job. They want to out-source...let them. We'll see how great the customer service is then. As far as USAirways.com goes...God help this industry if it is going to depend on the average person booking on line. That is one of our greatest problems. Half of our calls are trying to sort out the screw-ups that the novice "home reservationists" make day in and day out. I went through 10 weeks of intense training to become a General Res. agent and Reissue agent. How is the general public going to be adept at doing it with a simple computer and 10 fingers? There is more to this job than "answering calls"! Yourself and others including Dave are very quick to make judgement and you really have NO clue! Keep your un-American thoughts to yourself!
Welcome back Jack.Uinvestor said:
You always make an appearance when the end looks nigh, and always with the same old crap of MUST do or else. Funny we are still here and you are still writing the same old crap.
Pitbull not knowing what she's talking about is a big laugh!
A person doesn't earn two different degrees in life only to be someone’s fool. What you and others like you can't grasp is the fact we as employees are ready for the end, and for many none too soon either.
It was nice seeing you again in our time of dire straights AGAIN, but I am afraid you're wasting energy posting here Jack.
さようなら
Uinvestor-
I hope you lose your job (and your computer) tomorrow.
Watch out for those carts on your next flight.
I hope you lose your job (and your computer) tomorrow.
Watch out for those carts on your next flight.
cavalier,
You are so right! I think a great many of us are prepared for the end and chomping at the bit. Inspite of what some may say, we are also looking forward to a new endeavor outside of US. We will not quit, we will stay to the dying end so as to receive what ever benefits are due, no matter how small. As I have said before, we all have known for over two years that US is in trouble and that the end could be near. I have no sympathy for anyone who has not used that time to get their so called "chickens in a row". We have had time to plan, time to work overtime and rake in all the money that we could, get resumes together and sent out, plan for further education or think of starting a business. The writing has been on the wall for a long time and I do think that a lot of us are prepared and just biding our time. Good luck to you and all other US employees, no matter what transpires.
You are so right! I think a great many of us are prepared for the end and chomping at the bit. Inspite of what some may say, we are also looking forward to a new endeavor outside of US. We will not quit, we will stay to the dying end so as to receive what ever benefits are due, no matter how small. As I have said before, we all have known for over two years that US is in trouble and that the end could be near. I have no sympathy for anyone who has not used that time to get their so called "chickens in a row". We have had time to plan, time to work overtime and rake in all the money that we could, get resumes together and sent out, plan for further education or think of starting a business. The writing has been on the wall for a long time and I do think that a lot of us are prepared and just biding our time. Good luck to you and all other US employees, no matter what transpires.
Hi folks! For what it's worth here is my 2 cents: To demand $1.5 billion more in cuts on top of the $ 1 billion we already gave and with an even smaller number of workers to spread it over seems unreasonable and even suicidal. Unless management's plan is to make this offer so unpalatable so that the unions reject it and then they can really do what they want to do, whatever that is. Maybe that is why we have not been presented with the plan. But I think we have been given the plan. We have been searching high and low for a glimmer of this plan when it has been under our noses all along:Close it down and blame it on the employees. Something here smells and it isn't momma's homecooking. Good luck.
crazyincanton
crazyincanton
"If I was Dave, I would outsource all reservation jobs to India if the unions did not agree to a 25% salary reduction."
Uinvestor,
Obviously, you have not had the mispleasure of sitting on the other end of the phone trying to straighten out a problem with someone in India. It is frustrating, to say the least. I bet it would be a blast to try and book a several segment itinerary that way.
The average passenger would become frustrated with an outsourced res center..
Believe it or not, there are still consumers not interested in doing business outside of the U.S., and they will look for other alternatives within the United States. :down:
Uinvestor,
Obviously, you have not had the mispleasure of sitting on the other end of the phone trying to straighten out a problem with someone in India. It is frustrating, to say the least. I bet it would be a blast to try and book a several segment itinerary that way.
The average passenger would become frustrated with an outsourced res center..
Believe it or not, there are still consumers not interested in doing business outside of the U.S., and they will look for other alternatives within the United States. :down:
Something that gets me every time and I just think its funny is all the talk about "them" willing to work for less than us. Has anyone actually walked thru the airport and looked at "their" counter and ours? Notice a difference and maybe why they're willing to work for less?
The majority of the people I see working at "their" counters are maybe pushing 25 if you're lucky. There is of course some exceptions (like the furloughed US agents there), but the majority of the people are probably on their first or second job and $9.00 an hour with flying benefits is pretty good when you're just STARTING OUT.
Now look at our counter. How many people are under 50? 45? 35? How many have planned for their current lifestyle for the past 20 years and were finally able to afford that "luxury" car? How many have kids approaching college age? How many, even if they sold the luxury car (mine is a paid for 96 Tbird), could afford the $9 an hour job with the other commitments that dont stop just because you've been downsized. Sorry kids, you gotta stop college right now cause I cant afford it.
I would venture to guess that if a comparison of "us" and "them" were done, by far the majority of "them" are young, single, or newly married, maybe with a kid, probably very few near college age. Theres a big difference in comparing what someone who is just out of school starting out is willing to work for vs someone who has given 18-20 years and finally reached "that place" that we all hoped we would one day when we could have the nice things and not have to worry about driving the clunker until it quits and living 3 in an apartment.
To say that we are living over our means now and should take a cut and live like "them" or quit is rather judgemental in my opinion given the fact that there arent many of us who are 20 and just out of college.
The majority of the people I see working at "their" counters are maybe pushing 25 if you're lucky. There is of course some exceptions (like the furloughed US agents there), but the majority of the people are probably on their first or second job and $9.00 an hour with flying benefits is pretty good when you're just STARTING OUT.
Now look at our counter. How many people are under 50? 45? 35? How many have planned for their current lifestyle for the past 20 years and were finally able to afford that "luxury" car? How many have kids approaching college age? How many, even if they sold the luxury car (mine is a paid for 96 Tbird), could afford the $9 an hour job with the other commitments that dont stop just because you've been downsized. Sorry kids, you gotta stop college right now cause I cant afford it.
I would venture to guess that if a comparison of "us" and "them" were done, by far the majority of "them" are young, single, or newly married, maybe with a kid, probably very few near college age. Theres a big difference in comparing what someone who is just out of school starting out is willing to work for vs someone who has given 18-20 years and finally reached "that place" that we all hoped we would one day when we could have the nice things and not have to worry about driving the clunker until it quits and living 3 in an apartment.
To say that we are living over our means now and should take a cut and live like "them" or quit is rather judgemental in my opinion given the fact that there arent many of us who are 20 and just out of college.
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