Dan Garton puts full blame on AA mechanics

[AMFAMAN]

I thought the repairs were signed off by a crew chief as well.

If they're getting this nit-picky over the spacing of some string, you have to wonder either there are bigger fish they're diverting attention away from, or the problems aren't nearly as far reaching as you'd think they are so they're looking anything they can to try and give the impression that yes, they're really a safety agency....

Not sure about the original paperwork, but I am told grounding number 1 was an RII item which would most likely be a crew chief checking the work. Grounding number 2 is now a QA doing the back check of the work, followed by an FAA inspector. Yesterday several planes were released to the gate by the FAA and then called back after yet another issue.

The whole thing is nothing but a bunch of nit-picking as you said by the FAA. This from an agency who partnered with NWA to break the mechanics strike, and continues to overlook the near daily maintnenance incidents at that airline. Now it has been said many times on this board that if the mechanics decided to work by the book to the letter, not a plane would fly. Apparently this is the path that the FAA has chosen with AA's 80's, I guess their bored because I have yet to see anything remotely close to a safety of flight issue.

 

[The Goose]

I thought the repairs were signed off by a crew chief as well.

Problem here is the FAA being caught under WN's desk, guys. Don't lose sight of that.

If they're getting this nit-picky over the spacing of some string, you have to wonder either there are bigger fish they're diverting attention away from, or the problems aren't nearly as far reaching as you'd think they are so they're looking anything they can to try and give the impression that yes, they're really a safety agency....

Some say NWA has the same arrangement with the FAA as it seems Southwest does/did. NWA had numerous problems that seem to have been brushed under the rug after the amfa went out on strike some time back not to mention the older DC9s.

I wonder if NWA is one of those "bigger fish" you mentioned? Being politically connected does help keep the FAA at bay - Elaine Chou being a former NWA BOD member and her husband, Mitch McConnell, being a Kentucky senator.

 

[nbmcg01]

...aren't book signed by crew chiefs? Aren't they union line guys. Good lord, some of you people think the ground you walk on is golden and management is just the worst of human life. It's amazing how, no matter the story, you will find a way to blame managment, bring up bonuses, and shed blame from one self...

When the entire fleet is involved, it is not an individual's "mistake" or "increased latitude". The ok or directive HAD to come from someone up above. This was not a crew chief level decision. AA has an FAA inspector assigned. Why wasn't he/she involved? Or maybe he/she was involved and someone needs to find the paper work. I am in management and my first rule is that of taking responsibilty if I have given a directive or suggestion and there are adverse consequenses for my Specialists. In something of this magnitude the "buck" stops at the top. THAT is responsible management.

As for the revenue loss, some will be absorbed by the loss of pay experienced by the flight crews.

 

[The Goose]

Not sure about the original paperwork, but I am told grounding number 1 was an RII item which would most likely be a crew chief checking the work. Grounding number 2 is now a QA doing the back check of the work, followed by an FAA inspector. Yesterday several planes were released to the gate by the FAA and then called back after yet another issue.

The whole thing is nothing but a bunch of nit-picking as you said by the FAA. This from an agency who partnered with NWA to break the mechanics strike, and continues to overlook the near daily maintnenance incidents at that airline. Now it has been said many times on this board that if the mechanics decided to work by the book to the letter, not a plane would fly. Apparently this is the path that the FAA has chosen with AA's 80's, I guess their bored because I have yet to see anything remotely close to a safety of flight issue.

We heard of a couple of planes last night that actually were incorrect but, as you say, nothing close to a safety issue.

A fact for certain - the FAA is in bed with the airlines, but I can't imagine how they would know exactly where to look for violations unless someone told them, as they are primarily a paperwork agency.

Fines (but none yet), lost revenue and profits, cash burn, three union contracts due, 300+ gas-hog aircraft, $15 billion in debt - was this FAA "enforcement" actually a means to get the ball rolling? We may find out after the bonuses are extracted from the shareholders.

 

[FWAAA]

Fines (but none yet), lost revenue and profits, cash burn, three union contracts due, 300+ gas-hog aircraft, $15 billion in debt - was this FAA "enforcement" actually a means to get the ball rolling? We may find out after the bonuses are extracted from the shareholders.

I'll be very surprised if we don't hear about suspension of this year's PSP payouts plus across-the-board management paycuts. Shareholders have a pretty good sense of humor when it comes to management comp when things are humming along normally and profits are flowing, but that ain't the case right now nor will it be next week.

Of course, given the level of incompetence shown by management lately, I'm prepared to be surprised.

 

[The Goose]

I'll be very surprised if we don't hear about suspension of this year's PSP payouts plus across-the-board management paycuts. Shareholders have a pretty good sense of humor when it comes to management comp when things are humming along normally and profits are flowing, but that ain't the case right now nor will it be next week.

Of course, given the level of incompetence shown by management lately, I'm prepared to be surprised.

It may be rather profitable to open a betting site re: American's next moves - but here I really believe we'd be betting on the behavior of some spoiled rotten frat brats; i.e., except for the greed factor, rather unpredictable.

I'll be very surprised if the payouts are turned down or withheld, also even more surprised if there are any paycuts except for those on the floor.

We'll see.

 

[mwa]

FAA says "step on my tail and I'll bite off the heads of everyone in sight." This folks is why you do not want government by beaurocracy, there is no due process. Had a customs agent (Treasury Dept) brag to me once that they could enter your house, tear it to shreds (down to the wiring) and you could face a long and expensive (up to 10 yrs) process to fix it. If I remember correctly, he said they could do it w/o a warrant. Beware to those that desire gov't intervention.

 

[ual777fan]

I'll be very surprised if we don't hear about suspension of this year's PSP payouts plus across-the-board management paycuts. Shareholders have a pretty good sense of humor when it comes to management comp when things are humming along normally and profits are flowing, but that ain't the case right now nor will it be next week.

Of course, given the level of incompetence shown by management lately, I'm prepared to be surprised.

I would hope after this the board sees the potential PR disaster by awarding management massive bonuses after the Super 80 fiasco (which is and was still mostly because of the FAA has a stick up its @#$). I doubt the board or the shareholders would approve of such bonuses after this week. If they did, management would be extremely smart to decline the bonuses.

 

[eolesen]

I wonder if NWA is one of those "bigger fish" you mentioned? Being politically connected does help keep the FAA at bay - Elaine Chou being a former NWA BOD member and her husband, Mitch McConnell, being a Kentucky senator.

I doubt Chou or McConnell have anything to do with that, Goose.

Jim Oberstar (D-MN) heads up the Transportation & Infrastructure Committee, and that's who the FAA reports up to.

That's also who started all the investigations into FAA.

But he's a career politician, therefore a hypocrite.

blOwberstar wouldn't dare dare allow the FAA to do anything that would disrupt his constituencies and/or a large source of campaign contributions.....

 

[FWAAA]

Writing today, Ted Reed says:

Congress and the Federal Aviation Administration are locked in a nasty dispute, and American Airlines is caught in the middle.

Essentially, the agency charged with ensuring aviation safety is under pressure to show it can be tough with airlines. So it is being tough. The result? American canceled 900 flights today, bringing the total to 2,500 cancellations since Tuesday.

Hundreds of thousands of passengers have been inconvenienced. The airline has lost undisclosed millions, a result of lost revenue as well as costs to re-accommodate passengers, pay displaced crews and meet other expenses.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/newsanalys...E&cm_ite=NA

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

...aren't book signed by crew chiefs? Aren't they union line guys. Good lord, some of you people think the ground you walk on is golden and management is just the worst of human life. It's amazing how, no matter the story, you will find a way to blame managment, bring up bonuses, and shed blame from one self...

flyhigh,

Since you are NOT an AMT perhaps you are speaking from a lack of information about what it means to be an AMT. First and foremost, the AMTs that performed the original work on these ADs did the work as it was "spelled out" to do on the paper work. Not one AMT allowed an unsafe aircraft to enter service. AMTs do not walk on water. We never did nor will we ever.

Perhaps you could climb into the wheel well of an MD80 and just look at the maze of tubing and wires for the different systems. Perhaps you could do this as it is stated on the paper work and sign your name for accomplishing it. Perhaps you could do this every time you touch an aircraft and take the responsibility for doing so.

You see, my point is that the AMT does what he/she is suppose to do as mandated by the paperwork in his/her hand. We do not write the paper work; Boeing, FAA and company people are responsible for doing that. Be thankful that the "union line guys" are diligent in our given tasks and responsibilities. You have issues? Go to Capital Hill and vent.

 

[eolesen]

Ken, nobody is saying that an AMT let unsafe aircraft go in the air.

Don't want to speak for flyhigh, but I'm guessing he's responding to "mechanics are supervised, work is required to be signed off by management, the supervisor has a manager, and the manager has a director and so on..." which was offered up by Nancy earlier in the thread.

Fact is the work was signed off by union guys, and probably never even looked by a supv, production manager, or higher. And no, I'm not blaming the union guys at all. They did the work, and inspected it based on past practice. I wouldn't have gotten the tape measure out on this since a reasonable person would conclude that with the wiring contained inside the sheathing, the exact spacing of the external ties wouldn't present a whole lot of risk.

And I think you're a little wrong when you say AMT's don't write up the paperwork on how to fix a given problem. Perhaps a union line guy didn't do it, but someone had to come up with the proposed fix and document it. It was either an engineer, and AMT, or both. We know it wasn't an MBA, since AA requires all supervisory personnel to be a licensed AMT.

The whole issue which generated the AD seems to have originated with AA, presumably being reported by AMT's in TUL during overhauls, and I'd be surprised if those same AMT's didn't come up with the fix that Boeing eventually published to the industry. AA knows MD80's better than anyone else out there, including Boeing, since they've long dismantled the LGB operation.

 

[nbmcg01]

Ken, nobody is saying that an AMT let unsafe aircraft go in the air.

Don't want to speak for flyhigh, but I'm guessing he's responding to "mechanics are supervised, work is required to be signed off by management, the supervisor has a manager, and the manager has a director and so on..." which was offered up by Nancy earlier in the thread.

Fact is the work was signed off by union guys, and probably never even looked by a supv, production manager, or higher. And no, I'm not blaming the union guys at all. They did the work, and inspected it based on past practice. I wouldn't have gotten the tape measure out on this since a reasonable person would conclude that with the wiring contained inside the sheathing, the exact spacing of the external ties wouldn't present a whole lot of risk.

And I think you're a little wrong when you say AMT's don't write up the paperwork on how to fix a given problem. Perhaps a union line guy didn't do it, but someone had to come up with the proposed fix and document it. It was either an engineer, and AMT, or both. We know it wasn't an MBA, since AA requires all supervisory personnel to be a licensed AMT.

The whole issue which generated the AD seems to have originated with AA, presumably being reported by AMT's in TUL during overhauls, and I'd be surprised if those same AMT's didn't come up with the fix that Boeing eventually published to the industry. AA knows MD80's better than anyone else out there, including Boeing, since they've long dismantled the LGB operation.

Eric, then it is a training or compliance issue and that is accountable at the top.

 

[FWAAA]

Arpey said at today's news conference that the Service Bulletin originated at AA and that AA wrote the fix in cooperation with Boeing. The SB then evolved into the AD.

 

[eolesen]

Eric, then it is a training or compliance issue and that is accountable at the top.

No, Nancy. This presented no more of a safety of flight issue than an empty plastic cup from a predeparture drink sitting in an empty seat would presents a safety risk during turbulence or an evacuation....

It is nit-picking and a witch hunt.