Dave you want to come after the employees again? Why do you want to give your top notch mgt BONUSES? You don''t want to loose the talent? Usairways is in bankruptcy and former mgt. gets bonuses for it.I know the loads are down and the economy is in the tank.How can you reward your mgt.bonuses at a time like this? $6 million for what?
Dave want's more $$$$
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chipmunn
Guest
CatIII:
I understand the frustration of the leaders obtaining bonuses while the rank-and-file takes cuts. There is a valid argument that leaders should be the first to take a hit, but the problem is a seniority-based system
Many airline employees are a prisoner to an airline based on their longevity whereas management has lateral corporate mobility.
Whenever a company goes bankruptcy headhunters circle the headquarters as vultures looking to pick up managers and to move them to a company with higher pay/benefits and security.
Unfortunately, seniority based labor does not have the same option.
There is no question in my mind we do not want the management that go us into this situation and I am sure we all want the best possible people running our company.
I believe Dave Siegel makes an excellent point about using the bonus program to prevent brain drain. We need the best possible people making the best decisions possible to get us out of this mess. In my opinion we don not need second and third stringers running this place, we must have the first string otherwise this company will surely fail.
There is no time for mistakes, there is not time to train rookies, and we need to have the best. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Personally, I say give management the bonuses, keep the good guys, get us out of this mess, and help the company make as high as profits as possible, so we get bigger profit sharing checks or restricted stock capital gains.
Chip
I understand the frustration of the leaders obtaining bonuses while the rank-and-file takes cuts. There is a valid argument that leaders should be the first to take a hit, but the problem is a seniority-based system
Many airline employees are a prisoner to an airline based on their longevity whereas management has lateral corporate mobility.
Whenever a company goes bankruptcy headhunters circle the headquarters as vultures looking to pick up managers and to move them to a company with higher pay/benefits and security.
Unfortunately, seniority based labor does not have the same option.
There is no question in my mind we do not want the management that go us into this situation and I am sure we all want the best possible people running our company.
I believe Dave Siegel makes an excellent point about using the bonus program to prevent brain drain. We need the best possible people making the best decisions possible to get us out of this mess. In my opinion we don not need second and third stringers running this place, we must have the first string otherwise this company will surely fail.
There is no time for mistakes, there is not time to train rookies, and we need to have the best. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. Personally, I say give management the bonuses, keep the good guys, get us out of this mess, and help the company make as high as profits as possible, so we get bigger profit sharing checks or restricted stock capital gains.
Chip
Based on what your saying there Chip, I believe we need to do some more recruting. I have little faith in the old guard, and see reason not to retain them. I cannot respect anyone that sees employee concessions as the best way to make money. Must have been the easiest way to do so.
The relationship between upper and lower levels in the business needs to be symbiotic, especially now. Aside from the free upgrades and passes, there is no sigh of mutualism. Just talk.
Concessions were given before and squandered. They have been given once again, and there is talk of wanting more? What kind of plan is this anyhow? People have doubts about well compensated leaders making decisions that constantly bomb. I think Ill pass on the rerun. It was dismal before, and I have doubts about it's improvement for the sake of all stake holders. Frustration indeed. Im still waiting to be apreciated and respected by the labor friendly, forward thinking visionary. Our stats are fantastic, take a bow, they're right behind you all the way.
The relationship between upper and lower levels in the business needs to be symbiotic, especially now. Aside from the free upgrades and passes, there is no sigh of mutualism. Just talk.
Concessions were given before and squandered. They have been given once again, and there is talk of wanting more? What kind of plan is this anyhow? People have doubts about well compensated leaders making decisions that constantly bomb. I think Ill pass on the rerun. It was dismal before, and I have doubts about it's improvement for the sake of all stake holders. Frustration indeed. Im still waiting to be apreciated and respected by the labor friendly, forward thinking visionary. Our stats are fantastic, take a bow, they're right behind you all the way.
[blockquote]
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On 10/20/2002 4
47 AM HogDriver wrote:
Chip,
I have to agree with your assesment of the management pay situation. If we loose the leaders with talent to other carriers/business, then no one is left to competently steer us to a solid business plan. This is not a case of management taking the money and sticking it to labor. It is just prudent business to keep the needed talent, when trying to attract replacements with any skill, while bankrupt, would be difficult. If more bailout is needed to keep U alive through these unpresidented days, then temporary give backs may work. There is still plenty of fat in all our contracts. It sucks, but it may be needed.
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[/blockquote]
Guys, You maybe right about the needs? , but coming back to the employee groups again , is not going to bid well. You Throttle Jocks may have Plenty of Fat left in your contract? , but mine is 99% Lean USDA Prime. Maybe some work rules can be tweeked?...but coming after more money is going to be met with some serious opposition!! The IAM Mechanics and Related concessions took 2 votes...one against!!...and one finally for concessions. I do not expect this scenario to bid well on a second go around. People are still smarting and grumbling now.....and many are just plain vanilla fed up. The older folks that are closer to retirement may go along?...but expect less than favorable results from the rest. Many see the companies failure on projections of what was required , to already be a failure on the part of these High Dollar talents you are defending so heavily. Many Departments are already so under-staffed...that the demands can't be met as is. Sheetmetal repairs are going to suffer in both the short and long term for example. MEL's are going to increase due to RON MT. stations being closed. No matter if they cut the fleet size...or what? We are still flying to places..that we no longer have RON MT. So those MEL's added during the course of the flying day , will NOT be getting cleared at night , like they have been. Sure some will say I'm riding with Red Dots now...All True!!....but it's only going to get worse with 9 stations losing Mt. Think about your part before you refuse something because of a seat adjustment issue and the alike. Things are going to suffer...no matter if you Pilots want to admit to it?....or if the company refuses to believe it? Failure to think projectively , is a direct indictment of what our possible future business plan is going to work like. The brass needs to start thinking more....and going to the Employee Well less. Don't be so quick to fall into line...especially when you are drawing 6 figure sums...and we don't have that kind of ground to give anymore. You folks can give until it hurts...we already have some on life-support as it is. Let the talent pool in CCY start doing thier part....our monthly performance ratings more than show what we can do!! Let them Pony Up this time!!
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On 10/20/2002 4
47 AM HogDriver wrote: Chip,
I have to agree with your assesment of the management pay situation. If we loose the leaders with talent to other carriers/business, then no one is left to competently steer us to a solid business plan. This is not a case of management taking the money and sticking it to labor. It is just prudent business to keep the needed talent, when trying to attract replacements with any skill, while bankrupt, would be difficult. If more bailout is needed to keep U alive through these unpresidented days, then temporary give backs may work. There is still plenty of fat in all our contracts. It sucks, but it may be needed.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Guys, You maybe right about the needs? , but coming back to the employee groups again , is not going to bid well. You Throttle Jocks may have Plenty of Fat left in your contract? , but mine is 99% Lean USDA Prime. Maybe some work rules can be tweeked?...but coming after more money is going to be met with some serious opposition!! The IAM Mechanics and Related concessions took 2 votes...one against!!...and one finally for concessions. I do not expect this scenario to bid well on a second go around. People are still smarting and grumbling now.....and many are just plain vanilla fed up. The older folks that are closer to retirement may go along?...but expect less than favorable results from the rest. Many see the companies failure on projections of what was required , to already be a failure on the part of these High Dollar talents you are defending so heavily. Many Departments are already so under-staffed...that the demands can't be met as is. Sheetmetal repairs are going to suffer in both the short and long term for example. MEL's are going to increase due to RON MT. stations being closed. No matter if they cut the fleet size...or what? We are still flying to places..that we no longer have RON MT. So those MEL's added during the course of the flying day , will NOT be getting cleared at night , like they have been. Sure some will say I'm riding with Red Dots now...All True!!....but it's only going to get worse with 9 stations losing Mt. Think about your part before you refuse something because of a seat adjustment issue and the alike. Things are going to suffer...no matter if you Pilots want to admit to it?....or if the company refuses to believe it? Failure to think projectively , is a direct indictment of what our possible future business plan is going to work like. The brass needs to start thinking more....and going to the Employee Well less. Don't be so quick to fall into line...especially when you are drawing 6 figure sums...and we don't have that kind of ground to give anymore. You folks can give until it hurts...we already have some on life-support as it is. Let the talent pool in CCY start doing thier part....our monthly performance ratings more than show what we can do!! Let them Pony Up this time!!
HogDriver
Member
- Sep 2, 2002
- 64
- 21
Chip,
I have to agree with your assesment of the management pay situation. If we loose the leaders with talent to other carriers/business, then no one is left to competently steer us to a solid business plan. This is not a case of management taking the money and sticking it to labor. It is just prudent business to keep the needed talent, when trying to attract replacements with any skill, while bankrupt, would be difficult. If more bailout is needed to keep U alive through these unpresidented days, then temporary give backs may work. There is still plenty of fat in all our contracts. It sucks, but it may be needed.
I have to agree with your assesment of the management pay situation. If we loose the leaders with talent to other carriers/business, then no one is left to competently steer us to a solid business plan. This is not a case of management taking the money and sticking it to labor. It is just prudent business to keep the needed talent, when trying to attract replacements with any skill, while bankrupt, would be difficult. If more bailout is needed to keep U alive through these unpresidented days, then temporary give backs may work. There is still plenty of fat in all our contracts. It sucks, but it may be needed.
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,301
- 1,427
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/20/2002 7:29:52 AM usfliboi wrote:
[P]What thriving airline will they be recruited to ?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]When you're in managment, it doesn't have to be the same industry. Had a telecom exec leave to head up Waste Managment. Lou Gerstner knew nothing about computers, and you had a NW executive head over to Burger King. They, unfortunately deal in theory and missions. I still say a high school dropout with a passion for the industry could run rings around what passes for managment these days. [/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/20/2002 7:29:52 AM usfliboi wrote:
[P]What thriving airline will they be recruited to ?[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]When you're in managment, it doesn't have to be the same industry. Had a telecom exec leave to head up Waste Managment. Lou Gerstner knew nothing about computers, and you had a NW executive head over to Burger King. They, unfortunately deal in theory and missions. I still say a high school dropout with a passion for the industry could run rings around what passes for managment these days. [/P]
Nobody wants to give any more. Regardless of what job they have. But the fact remains, that if there is no money coming in and you can't pay the bills then just what is it a company is supposed to do. For those who would respond with close the doors, you are not living in the real world. This industry is on the verge of total collapse. If you think this is not true, your head is either in the sand or up your ###. If he comes back to us asking for more money, that is exactly what he is going to get. Because if he doesn't get it, the doors will close and we can all take our chances in the real world trying to find jobs. Take the tough times now and hope for redemption or refuse to take the cuts if he asks, and start looking for work. Either way, the choice will be ours. This isn't about trying to destroy labor. This is about trying to save THIS airline. If you can't differentiate that you are truly out to lunch.
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
- 270
Although ill agree with you Chip that we do need to keep good quality management, but we also need to keep our good quality employees, which are the bred and butter of this airline.If you think that our stellar performance recently in the rankings was achieved by good hard work , it was done by the employees.. Lets see that focus, loyality and committment to our hard to find good quality line employees...
This isn't about trying to destroy labor. This is about trying to save THIS airline. If you can't differentiate that you are truly out to lunch.
Guess what; I work in this world called labor and know tons of these people who make it up. These people can certainly differentiate reality and are NOT out to lunch. They feel hopelessly lost on this sinking ship. Almost everyone I talk to is actively looking for employment, even outside the airline industry. With bonuses passed out to people running a sinking ship, whether it was their fault for our dire situation or not, doesn't mean squat to them. I can see this airline going out of business because labor will NOT give another dime. They simply don't care anymore. As I hear said, I am riding this dog until it dies then moving on. I don't care how much is preached here on these boards about reality, I am telling you what I am saying here IS REALITY
Guess what; I work in this world called labor and know tons of these people who make it up. These people can certainly differentiate reality and are NOT out to lunch. They feel hopelessly lost on this sinking ship. Almost everyone I talk to is actively looking for employment, even outside the airline industry. With bonuses passed out to people running a sinking ship, whether it was their fault for our dire situation or not, doesn't mean squat to them. I can see this airline going out of business because labor will NOT give another dime. They simply don't care anymore. As I hear said, I am riding this dog until it dies then moving on. I don't care how much is preached here on these boards about reality, I am telling you what I am saying here IS REALITY
Chip;
I doubt that very many head hunters are out there trying to suck up the losers that got USAIR into the mess they are in.
If these people are so brilliant and confident in their abilities to turn around USAIR then they would gladly work for options instead of bonuses. Surely they know that they are asking everyone else to invest in the company while they in effect divest.The fact is they are just milking the company dry just like the executives did at EAL, PanAm and TWA. They want hard cash while they peddle stock and fairy tale promises to all the suckers.
I doubt that very many head hunters are out there trying to suck up the losers that got USAIR into the mess they are in.
If these people are so brilliant and confident in their abilities to turn around USAIR then they would gladly work for options instead of bonuses. Surely they know that they are asking everyone else to invest in the company while they in effect divest.The fact is they are just milking the company dry just like the executives did at EAL, PanAm and TWA. They want hard cash while they peddle stock and fairy tale promises to all the suckers.
Chip says;
As the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
So if Dave is asking you to give back so he can give these guys bonuses then what is he saying about the rest of the workforce?
If your making less than everyone else what is he saying? You get what you pay for? Are the efforts of USAIR workers inferior to those of workers at other airlines? Do the causes of USAIR's difficulties lie in the fact that they have a sub-par workforce or sub-par management? If it is a simple as you get what you pay for then why are USAIRs workers, who I'm sure work just as hard and make just as many sacrifices and perform just as well as those of any other airline working for less? The fact that USAIR is giving bonuses at a time when they've asked all other workers to do with less is unconsionable. It shows the complete arrogance of those who manage the company. 'You should sacrifice but I shouldnt.' When times are good they get bonuses because they did it, when times are bad they get bonuses because YOU did it and they are here to help you? Come on give me a break! Does anyone think that other companies want to announce to their workforce that due to the stellar performance of USAIR they have decided to lure away their managers to help run their companies? They are just fattening up their cash assetts to put them in a better financial condition should the company fail.
As the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
So if Dave is asking you to give back so he can give these guys bonuses then what is he saying about the rest of the workforce?
If your making less than everyone else what is he saying? You get what you pay for? Are the efforts of USAIR workers inferior to those of workers at other airlines? Do the causes of USAIR's difficulties lie in the fact that they have a sub-par workforce or sub-par management? If it is a simple as you get what you pay for then why are USAIRs workers, who I'm sure work just as hard and make just as many sacrifices and perform just as well as those of any other airline working for less? The fact that USAIR is giving bonuses at a time when they've asked all other workers to do with less is unconsionable. It shows the complete arrogance of those who manage the company. 'You should sacrifice but I shouldnt.' When times are good they get bonuses because they did it, when times are bad they get bonuses because YOU did it and they are here to help you? Come on give me a break! Does anyone think that other companies want to announce to their workforce that due to the stellar performance of USAIR they have decided to lure away their managers to help run their companies? They are just fattening up their cash assetts to put them in a better financial condition should the company fail.
[blockquote]
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On 10/20/2002 10:22:33 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Chip;
I doubt that very many head hunters are out there trying to suck up the losers that got USAIR into the mess they are in.
If these people are so brilliant and confident in their abilities to turn around USAIR then they would gladly work for options instead of bonuses. Surely they know that they are asking everyone else to invest in the company while they in effect divest.The fact is they are just milking the company dry just like the executives did at EAL, PanAm and TWA. They want hard cash while they peddle stock and fairy tale promises to all the suckers.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark...
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On 10/20/2002 10:22:33 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Chip;
I doubt that very many head hunters are out there trying to suck up the losers that got USAIR into the mess they are in.
If these people are so brilliant and confident in their abilities to turn around USAIR then they would gladly work for options instead of bonuses. Surely they know that they are asking everyone else to invest in the company while they in effect divest.The fact is they are just milking the company dry just like the executives did at EAL, PanAm and TWA. They want hard cash while they peddle stock and fairy tale promises to all the suckers.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark...
gilbertguy
Senior
- Aug 29, 2002
- 368
- 0
[blockquote]
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On 10/20/2002 10:17:32 AM cavalier wrote:
This isn't about trying to destroy labor. This is about trying to save THIS airline. If you can't differentiate that you are truly out to lunch.
Tell this to the US agt in PA. who just committed suicide after being told of a layoff!
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On 10/20/2002 10:17:32 AM cavalier wrote:
This isn't about trying to destroy labor. This is about trying to save THIS airline. If you can't differentiate that you are truly out to lunch.
Tell this to the US agt in PA. who just committed suicide after being told of a layoff!
