Dear Captain Prater

[lynyrdskynyrd]

....just follow Alpa merger policy, present the list, and let the chips fall where they may. Yeah, yeah, I know the east guys think alpa merger policy was not followed, but it was, by both sides, I stand by the first sentence.

 

[pilot]

ALPA EC will decide if the merger policy was followed. If it was, the award is binding. If it wasn't it is not binding.

East says it wasn't. Mostly the West guys prefer to allude to binding arbitration and blame the East for trying to "grab" DOH and want it binding no matter what. To the East guys that is a "grab".

DOH is not mentioned in the merger policy. Nor is Slotting. Windfall is.

Both sides argued for the best outcome for their respective pilot groups. Length of Service (not DOH) vs. Slotting. East presented its case knowing an arbitrator would follow merger policy. Ee did not. West won and East lost. What did West win?

A Windfall. Simply the point East has presented to the EC. Apparently the EC must see something or this would have been over a week ago.

The ball is in the EC court and the outcome is not going to be decided by anyone but them.

East knows what we will do if the Windfall stands. West better get ready with the DFR lawsuits if it doesn't. And neither is a good scenario for the union or the company. Or, most importantly, the futures of each and every pilot on this property.

Of course, intelligence could prevail among both groups and a mutually acceptable agreement reached. But based on what I'm reading here it doesn't seem likely.

I hope it does. But if it doesn't we all lose along with our profession. On that you can count.

pilot

 

[Barberpole]

- West pilots entering Section VI negotiations, which could last for years and then ultimately ending up in a strike with 60% of the combined pilots bound by their contract and would fly through the West strike.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You are a disgrace to the piloting profession....

 

[767jetz]

What did West win?

A Windfall. Simply the point East has presented to the EC. Apparently the EC must see something or this would have been over a week ago.

Of course, intelligence could prevail among both groups and a mutually acceptable agreement reached. But based on what I'm reading here it doesn't seem likely.

West did not get a windfall. They still have their relative position and can bid the same seat and equipment that they did before. No more. No less. East pilots can still bid what they did before. No more. No Less. A furloughed pilot is still a furloughed pilot. No more. No less. In fact you have some East pilots on this board claiming that their relative position actually improved. No reasonable person can see this as a windfall.

Perhaps there could have been more protection for widebody f/o's and some credit for the greater attrition at East. (But attrition won't be a factor once age 60 changes.)

ALPA EC is taking their time because they have duty to consider the options and not come across as jumping to any conclusions. That is why this was not over a week ago. They will mull both sides of the argument, and then uphold ALPA merger policy by agreeing with the award since it is binding and the process played out as it should. Then when the inevitable attempt by the East to decertify ALPA starts, it can not be said that the EC neglected their responsibility by rushing to a decision. It's called covering their butts.

As for a mutually acceptable agrement, intelligence could have prevailed prior to going to binding arbitration. But East would not budge from their Length of Service (DOH) position, so they failed to consider alternatives. Now they want a "do-over" because things didn't go the way they want.

Life doesn't work that way. You can't rob a bank for easy money, and then after you get caught and put in jail, suddenly say now you want to play by the rules and get a real job because you don't like the way your first choice played out. Most well adjusted adults realize that all choices have consequences and rewards. It's time East pilots start acting like adults instead of spoiled children. Threats of strikes and scabbing and burning down the house and forcing your will on others does nothing but diminish your collective credibility.

 

[john john]

And neither is a good scenario for the union or the company. Or, most importantly, the futures of each and every pilot on this property.
pilot

Upper Management will propose a contract for its pilots to try to get the US side to cave. You have not seen the last of Glass and gang

 

[prechilill]

ALPA EC will decide if the merger policy was followed.
pilot

Only a court can determine whether policy may not have been followed, ALPA is out of the picture. There is NOTHING ALPA can do regarding the integration list. USAir pilots are being mislead by their leadership... :down:

 

[cactusboy53]

Seems like the only solution. Have fun at the B-scale operation of US Airways!

Callsign's got it. If any AAA bretheren are reading this that understand the ALPA Merger Policy, and believe that it is truly binding: Call your representatives and get them to stand down.

The money is now in Parker's pocket. If you will not move on, AWA pilot's can. We can open our section six and get even more money and benefits. Parker will run this as two carriers as long as he can get your labor cheap. Could be a few months or ??

I know that you are upset, but you only gain will be when cooler minds previal.

 

[autofixer]

I don't think you West guys understand the plight of the F/Os in the East. We have been crapped on for 20 years; by this company and the top 1/3rd of the pilot list. Now the bottom 3rd is being crapped on again, this time by Nic, being placed junior to pilots who were not even hired at AWA when we were flying Captain here.

Now, most of us are old and nearing time to go. Do you honestly think that we care if we work under B scale wages (Yes we were here when there was a B scale, not in grade school) AGAIN, if it prevents us from being on the recieving end of a crap sandwich again? We have reached the tipping point. We have gone along with ALPA since 1992, giving concession after concession, to keep this company afloat. Now the assets that we gave our blood sweat and tears for are in peril. In peril of being pulled from our grasp. It is not going to happen. If you go to section six, why would we not come over and fly your planes, we see you are willing to come and jump in our seats? Do we care if we are called scabs? No, we only have a few years left anyway and don't forget, ALPA has been so good to us for 20 years.

 

[delldude]

I don't think you West guys understand the plight of the F/Os in the East. We have been crapped on for 20 years; by this company and the top 1/3rd of the pilot list. Now the bottom 3rd is being crapped on again, this time by Nic, being placed junior to pilots who were not even hired at AWA when we were flying Captain here.

Now, most of us are old and nearing time to go. Do you honestly think that we care if we work under B scale wages (Yes we were here when there was a B scale, not in grade school) AGAIN, if it prevents us from being on the recieving end of a crap sandwich again? We have reached the tipping point. We have gone along with ALPA since 1992, giving concession after concession, to keep this company afloat. Now the assets that we gave our blood sweat and tears for are in peril. In peril of being pulled from our grasp. It is not going to happen. If you go to section six, why would we not come over and fly your planes, we see you are willing to come and jump in our seats? Do we care if we are called scabs? No, we only have a few years left anyway and don't forget, ALPA has been so good to us for 20 years.

Now you feel the pain and suffrage of other labor groups on the property...you've finally come full circle.

 

[prechilill]

I don't think you West guys understand the plight of the F/Os in the East. We have been crapped on for 20 years; by this company and the top 1/3rd of the pilot list. Now the bottom 3rd is being crapped on again, this time by Nic, being placed junior to pilots who were not even hired at AWA when we were flying Captain here.

Now, most of us are old and nearing time to go. Do you honestly think that we care if we work under B scale wages (Yes we were here when there was a B scale, not in grade school) AGAIN, if it prevents us from being on the recieving end of a crap sandwich again? We have reached the tipping point. We have gone along with ALPA since 1992, giving concession after concession, to keep this company afloat. Now the assets that we gave our blood sweat and tears for are in peril. In peril of being pulled from our grasp. It is not going to happen. If you go to section six, why would we not come over and fly your planes, we see you are willing to come and jump in our seats? Do we care if we are called scabs? No, we only have a few years left anyway and don't forget, ALPA has been so good to us for 20 years.

Crying a river doesn't entitle you to a cup of coffee at McDonalds.

 

[aquagreen73s]

ALPA EC is taking their time because they have duty to consider the options and not come across as jumping to any conclusions. That is why this was not over a week ago. They will mull both sides of the argument, and then uphold ALPA merger policy by agreeing with the award since it is binding and the process played out as it should. Then when the inevitable attempt by the East to decertify ALPA starts, it can not be said that the EC neglected their responsibility by rushing to a decision. It's called covering their butts.

The EC can look only for a procedural defect, not a substantive defect. In fact, ALPA has essentially disqualified itself from passing a judgment with respect to the substantive portion of the award by stating in its very own merger policy that an award is final and binding. Secondly, the reason for having two pilot neutrals on the board is to avoid ALPA having to get drawn into making any post-jusdgment substantive evaluation. If something is wrong with the substance of the award, then it's up to the respective pilot neutral to say something. Here, the East's neutral didn't say a damn thing other than raise a question about the post-PID recallees.

ALPA has to stay as far away from taking a position on what is "fair" and for good reason. As the bargaining agent for both pilot groups, ALPA owes a duty to be fair and impartial to both groups. The moment they make a post-award substantive determination, then they have stopped being impartial. The only thing the EC is really doing now is looking at the process and evaluating whether there should be some proposed changes for the next integration. With the overwhelming majority feeling this was a solid decision, that the process performed exactly as designed, then it's doubtful any tinkering with the process is necessary.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

"If you will not move on, AWA pilot's can. We can open our section six and get even more money and benefits."

I am not so sure about AWA now being able to go Sec.VI. The ALPA lawyers have indicated there was a drop dead date for that option last Jun. I cannot state that as fact, because there has always been quite a bit of debate as to that "date."

If somehow the West does enter Sec VI, they ought to be able to get another contract in what....4 or more years..especially considering the leverage they have!

The East and Parker will continue their dance of pretending to bargain in good faith under the transition agreement...for years to come if necessary.

Greeter.

 

[aquagreen73s]

"If you will not move on, AWA pilot's can. We can open our section six and get even more money and benefits."

I am not so sure about AWA now being able to go Sec.VI. The ALPA lawyers have indicated there was a drop dead date for that option last Jun. I cannot state that as fact, because there has always been quite a bit of debate as to that "date."

Greeter.

And the rebuttal is that the drop dead date (if there exists one, I don't know) is that the limitations period was tolled when the merger was announced to allow for negotiation of a joint contract. But that involves a completely new claim to litigate and simply isn't worth it given the speed at which changes will be happening in the industry. What's probably going to happen is another merger followed by the continued dismemberment of East. No matter who Doug merges with, something on the East has gotta go to satisfy the DOJ. Care to guess who the lucky pink-slip selectees will be? PHL is unfixable. Doug and SWA both know it and it will go down as an asset only sale.

 

[Walmartgreeter]

" PHL is unfixable. Doug and SWA both know it and it will go down as an asset only sale."


Yep, it is unfixable. Proven fact. But do no forget where all the profits came from. PHL sucks, but generates a huge amount of cash...you know..same cash that funded your profit sharing.

As to pilots being layed off...I don't pretend to have a clue. We all know the next downturn is around the corner. Fact is on the East side there is currently a SHORTAGE of pilots, and our large attrition rate does not help matters.

Greeter.

 

[TechBoy]

Life doesn't work that way. You can't rob a bank for easy money, and then after you get caught and put in jail, suddenly say now you want to play by the rules and get a real job because you don't like the way your first choice played out. Most well adjusted adults realize that all choices have consequences and rewards. It's time East pilots start acting like adults instead of spoiled children. Threats of strikes and scabbing and burning down the house and forcing your will on others does nothing but diminish your collective credibility.

I couldn't have said it better.

The only other question that I have is should such immature and childish people be allowed to fly airplanes? I'm glad I fly UA.