Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

Try and follow along.

The T/A is a legal document. Since it was signed under the RLA it is covered under the law.

The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

The law is DFR. The west has rights. The union ALPA and since usapa inherited that responsibility has a duty to represent the west fairly. An arbitration decided what was fair.

The Nicolau list. Therefore under RLA law, DFR law the west does have a legal right to the Nicolau list.

Three reasons why we are not using the Nicolau yet. The east failed to keep your word. Usapa failed to get a contract. Parker failed to have a spine and just tell the east that is the list he is going to use. The east allowed Parker to use that excuse to save hundreds of millions of dollars.

But Parker wants this merger. Money will make him grow a pair. In order to get this merger done he needs to settle our fight. Watch the Crandell interview. The fastest, least risk option is tell usapa it is the Nicolau deal with it.

Usapa can play nice and get a contract with maybe some say or Parker will turn is entire deal over to APA and they can finish very quickly without usapa input.

So take a new contract with some input and the Nicolau or have a new contract and the Nicolau imposed on you.

You guys scream about not having a vote. Guess what you are going to hate this.

No vote on the bargaining agent and not vote on a contract. Welcome to American bitches.

Let me see, Clear s OPINION, or the ruling of the 9th about whether the Nicolau List has to be used......



5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. 9th court of appeals.

So it seems it is possible now, going into the AA merger possibility there might be any form of integration. DOH? Maybe. Certainly would benefit the AA pilots. Or some sort of slot. But the Nicolau is a very remote possibility now. There was never a contract between East and West pilots going in to an AA merge, and if there is not one, the Nic is not going to be a factor ever again. Ask any AA pilot. They have no reason at all compelling the Nicolau list. All it does is put the majority of younger West pilots ahead of the multitudes of retiring East group. That makes no sense to an AA group with a unique history of preserving their seniority at all costs. None at all.

 

[Black Swan]

Yet here we are still talking about it. The company needs to finish our merger before they move on. The on.y accepted list is the Nicolau.

I would say a reasonable person would conclude that the dream of DOH is dead.

A more reasonable person would answer there is no legal compelling reason to do it. And the 9th court of appeals says so, not a pilot. All you have is your wishes and desires. Everyone else has a legal basis not to do it.

 

[Black Swan]

Show the law Cleardirect. The LAW that says the Nicolau has to be used. I can then continue to quote a multitude of 9th Court of Appeal RULINGS that say it doesn't. Cite case law, line and number or don't bother coming back with YOUR opinion.

 

[cleardirect]

Try and follow along...The TA is a document which is administered by the company AND the CBA, USAPA. It is subject to LEGAL change, with written agrement of both sides (actually, I'm not even sure it has to be written). So, in the interest of BOTH parties, in order to expedite or facilitate the merger, changes can be agreed to. USAPA has to protect the majority of it's members, that's it's charter, per the RLA and the NMB.

I expect some serious modifications of the TA if a contract is not agreed to first.

If you're a furloughed guy that has not accepted recall, YOU"RE SCREWED. You should be looking to sue whomever gave you that advice. It was pretty bad.

Try and read before commenting


The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

As I said in my previous post. Usapa was given that opportunity to negotiate with the company and the east reps voted down that resolution. So your argument that is possible, well is dead.

Even more important than that. Usapa has a responsibility to protect ALL its members not just the majority. That is the LMRDA, RLS NMB and just human decency. Unless you would like the APA to only protect the majority of American pilots and ignore the east pilots?

No not furloughed, never been furloughed, never been close to furlough. So all you people can stop trying to justify your little fantasy that it is just the junior guys that want the Nicolau.

Very soon you are going to see that the support for the Nicolau is equally distributed top to bottom through all seniority ranges.

 

[767jetz]

Congrats on the 43.2% raise Jetz. Long over due.

Thanks! Not sure about the 43.2%. Not for me at least. I know the A320 guys got the biggest bump since they were further away from the industry for all these years. I have no problem with that. But with work rule, scope, and retirement improvements, on top of the straight hourly increases, it very well could approach 40+%. The NMB is calling it industry leading. Basically a more expensive contract than Delta's, even thought the pay rates lag DL initially. Retro was a big deal. It wasn't 100% retro, but $400 million is an unprecedented amount that will go a long way in reversing the trend of management benefiting from indefinite contract delays. For those of us in the UA side, some of the work rule changes kinda suck, but were basically necessary to bring the CO side up to our standard. CO had some of the worst work rues in the industry (close to bare minimum FARs), but it was offset by decent pay rates. It was a HUGELY complicated process merging these two very different groups.

What I find entertaining, and very predictable, is that the east blowhards that have had nothing but snippets to post and feces to fling at the UA/CO merger, were so far off target. Now they can't even admit they were wrong. Nothing new though, as most of you fine aviators are all too well aware. Good luck with the possible AA merger. I hope you will finally put your war to rest, and I have no doubt that the west will prevail in protecting what is rightfully yours. Keep up the good fight. It certainly will be interesting to see what solution the arbitrators come up with for our ISL. I hear it will be about mid summer before we get an answer.

 

[Black Swan]

Try and read before commenting


The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

As I said in my previous post. Usapa was given that opportunity to negotiate with the company and the east reps voted down that resolution. So your argument that is possible, well is dead.

Even more important than that. Usapa has a responsibility to protect ALL its members not just the majority. That is the LMRDA, RLS NMB and just human decency. Unless you would like the APA to only protect the majority of American pilots and ignore the east pilots?

No not furloughed, never been furloughed, never been close to furlough. So all you people can stop trying to justify your little fantasy that it is just the junior guys that want the Nicolau.

Very soon you are going to see that the support for the Nicolau is equally distributed top to bottom through all seniority ranges.

Show us the LAW that says the Nicolau has to be used or shut up. You are a bag of hot air and no facts.

 

[Black Swan]

Thanks! Not sure about the 43.2%. Not for me at least. I know the A320 guys got the biggest bump since they were further away from the industry for all these years. I have no problem with that. But with work rule, scope, and retirement improvements, on top of the straight hourly increases, it very well could approach 40+%. The NMB is calling it industry leading. Basically a more expensive contract than Delta's, even thought the pay rates lag DL initially. Retro was a big deal. It wasn't 100% retro, but $400 million is an unprecedented amount that will go a long way in reversing the trend of management benefiting from indefinite contract delays. For those of us in the UA side, some of the work rule changes kinda suck, but were basically necessary to bring the CO side up to our standard. CO had some of the worst work rues in the industry (close to bare minimum FARs), but it was offset by decent pay rates. It was a HUGELY complicated process merging these two very different groups.

What I find entertaining, and very predictable, is that the east blowhards that have had nothing but snippets to post and feces to fling at the UA/CO merger, were so far off target. Now they can't even admit they were wrong. Nothing new though, as most of you fine aviators are all too well aware. Good luck with the possible AA merger. I hope you will finally put your war to rest, and I have no doubt that the west will prevail in protecting what is rightfully yours. Keep up the good fight. It certainly will be interesting to see what solution the arbitrators come up with for our ISL. I hear it will be about mid summer before we get an answer.

And you were wrong about everything you said about the 9th and Silver. Every single thing you said was wrong.

 

[cleardirect]

Let me see, Clear s OPINION, or the ruling of the 9th about whether the Nicolau List has to be used......



5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. 9th court of appeals.

So it seems it is possible now, going into the AA merger possibility there might be any form of integration. DOH? Maybe. Certainly would benefit the AA pilots. Or some sort of slot. But the Nicolau is a very remote possibility now. There was never a contract between East and West pilots going in to an AA merge, and if there is not one, the Nic is not going to be a factor ever again. Ask any AA pilot. They have no reason at all compelling the Nicolau list. All it does is put the majority of younger West pilots ahead of the multitudes of retiring East group. That makes no sense to an AA group with a unique history of preserving their seniority at all costs. None at all.

Yes but the company has accepted the Nicolau. They have not even talked about another list.

Judge Silver also told the company and usapa that if you want to use something other than the Nicolau you better have a damn god reason.

Parker needs to get the merger done before he can move on. Either Parker or the APA will eventually stop playing the usap game and settle this. Decide that the safest cheapest path is to use the Nicolau.

What will usapa do then? A contract with one option for seniority?

A contract with the Nicolau and input for usapa or a contract with the Nicolau imposed on usapa?

 

[Black Swan]

Try and read before commenting


The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

As I said in my previous post. Usapa was given that opportunity to negotiate with the company and the east reps voted down that resolution. So your argument that is possible, well is dead.

Even more important than that. Usapa has a responsibility to protect ALL its members not just the majority. That is the LMRDA, RLS NMB and just human decency. Unless you would like the APA to only protect the majority of American pilots and ignore the east pilots?

No not furloughed, never been furloughed, never been close to furlough. So all you people can stop trying to justify your little fantasy that it is just the junior guys that want the Nicolau.

Very soon you are going to see that the support for the Nicolau is equally distributed top to bottom through all seniority ranges.

"It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated." 9th court of Appeals SF
CITE THE LAW CLEAR. And the 9th was referring to Wakes' Circus, which was later remanded.

 

[Black Swan]

Yes but the company has accepted the Nicolau. They have not even talked about another list.

Judge Silver also told the company and usapa that if you want to use something other than the Nicolau you better have a damn god reason.

Parker needs to get the merger done before he can move on. Either Parker or the APA will eventually stop playing the usap game and settle this. Decide that the safest cheapest path is to use the Nicolau.

What will usapa do then? A contract with one option for seniority?

A contract with the Nicolau and input for usapa or a contract with the Nicolau imposed on usapa?

Here is the DAMN GOD REASON: THE 9TH SAYS WE DON'T. GOOD ENOUGH TO HAVE A LEGAL RULING OR DO YOU NEED SOMETHING RELIGULOUS LIKE YOUR WACKY PHX REP? BY THE WAY, STILL WAITING FOR THE LEGAL REASON WE HAVE TO USE YOUR AWARD. LINE AND VERSE, NUMBERED RULING.

 

[767jetz]

And you were wrong about everything you said about the 9th and Silver. Every single thing you said was wrong.

I noticed you started that response with "And" so I guess that means you don't dispute that you were wrong. I'm proud of you. THAT is progress.

Now, to correct the rest of you statement, I have always said that I will admit I was wrong about USAPA when all legal challenges are done and the Nic does not stand. Since your dispute is still ongoing, you can't possibly determine who is right and who is wrong. Just more wishful thinking on your part. If your arbitrated list goes away, I will gladly eat crow. I'll bet if the Nic stands you won't be man enough to do the same, as evidenced by your history. You'll just continue to live in denial.

Still, laugh at you... (All the way to the bank!)

 

[Bill Brasky]

And you were wrong about everything you said about the 9th and Silver. Every single thing you said was wrong.

And it's pretty clear to me that he's NOT a UAL guy, but a westie, and a junior one at that. He's been wrong more than you know.

 

[A320 Driver]

Do you believe the M/B arbitrators are going to disregard arbitrator Nicolau's ruling because USAPA wants them to?

The seniority list exist in the contract and the contract says the Nicolau Award is the seniority list until it is modified with the consent of the company.

I think they can do whatever they want. If you and the West get your deepest desire...the NIC, then I guess that is that. But nothing says it HAS to go that way since the NIC was never used.

Oh, BTW, you left out the lecture part about integrity and agreements...or did I just miss it?

Driver

 

[Phoenix]

You guys are funny. Last wek you were all deathly afraid of arbitration and were convinced that it would be negotiated.

Now you are convinced that M/B will get you what you can not get.

The Nicolau is the only accepted list. The company has a seat at the table. A joint contract will implement the Nicolau list.

The east and west will be flying together long before an APA/ us air seniority list is decided by arbitration.

Thrash around all you want trying to avoid the investable. But you will live under the nicolau list.

Using anything other than the Nicolau list as judge Silver said puts usapa on dangerous ground. In a merger that puts usapa, us air, APA all on dangerous ground. Thankfully all the other parties understand that danger and will avoid it as rational people do.

Oh stop projecting your extreme emotions on everyone and look at things objectively. The whole DFR threat has been a convenient scape goat for the company to delay to this point.

The fact is all DFR suits have remote possibilities of every collecting a meaningful return on the investment that plaintiffs seek. Its just the nature of DFR. It is convoluted with a myriad of escapes due to technicalities, all with subjective assessments, and always diluted by time, circumstances, appeals, diminishing enthusiasm and vanishing apparitions. When was the last update from AOL? A PBGC land grab frontal assault? If plaintiffs are lucky the exhausted litigants stumble to the ground and accept settlements for pennies on the dollar, more than a decade after promising to each other their fortunes and honor.

The chance of a successful DFR against the UCC or the company is Nil. DUI has no reason to allow a DFR threat to enter into his mind. Its none of his business. "Its for YOU GUYS to decide." The chance of success against a union that will no longer exist is less than Nil. The chance of a DFR against APA is Nil. The legitimate union purposes are legion, and the West class is not only bound, but also not even privy to the NDA.

If the APA aims to force USAPA to show up with the Nic they can make the argument, but whats in it for them to get involved in affairs not their own?

If the APA aims to punt SLI for now and embark on an unknown path to an unknown outcome then whats in it for them?

If the APA aims to achieve pilot seniority cooperation and memorize it now via ratification, whats in it for them?

And whats acceptable for the UCC costing estimates?

Its all business. Threats are just attempts from the outside at shaping the MOU discussions inside the mahogany walls of Dallas.

I don't think it is too hard to figure out (assuming the reps have the fortitude to actually do their jobs rather than outsource their responsibilities to others, like ALPA does. Well, OK, all bets are off. ).

 

[cleardirect]

Here is the DAMN GOD REASON: THE 9TH SAYS WE DON'T. GOOD ENOUGH TO HAVE A LEGAL RULING OR DO YOU NEED SOMETHING RELIGULOUS LIKE YOUR WACKY PHX REP? BY THE WAY, STILL WAITING FOR THE LEGAL REASON WE HAVE TO USE YOUR AWARD. LINE AND VERSE, NUMBERED RULING.

Angry today I see. No need to yell.

First I missed an o. No damn good reason.

The end of ALPA says. Dicta means nothing the only thing of importance from the ninth is not ripe. But I will set that aside since end of ALPA is wrong.

What did the ninth say in 2009?

Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated."

Since the court of appeals can only decide on what was done in the district court any opinion whether a Nicolau contract would pass is nothing but an unproven opinion.

But more importantly in 2009 when the ninth heard this case usapa was fairly new and had not created the track record they have now. The ninth said that it is uncertain that the Nicolau would be used. It does not say it will not be used.

So here we are three years later. Usapa has not changed its proposal as much as a comma. Usapa has not negotiated a single minute of any seniority list other than the Nicolau list in that time. We now have a ruling from judge Silver that says usapa had better have a damn good reason to use anything other than the Nicolau list. Parker is going into another merger and needs to complete this quickly without liability.

It is becoming very certain that the Nicolau list will be the only list used for the next integration.

While there is no "law" that says it has to be the Nicolau. The T/A says it. The east pilots agreed to it. The company accepted it. Integrity demands it. The court say it unless you have a damn good reason not to it will be the Nicolau.

So far after 5 years usapa has not found a legal reason not to use it. It does not put east senior to west is not a legal reason.