Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

....(and the biggest unfairness.. PBGC money hasn't been split fairly to all pilots )..

Do USAPA and APA have a legitimate responsablitly to account for what is going on in this merger and work out a SLI as part of the MOU in Dallas? Or should they punt to an arbitrator, like ALPA?

1) Indeed....nothing short of unbelievable...but some points awarded for the "cute" factor. What adorable and precocious little tykes they are! 🙂 For laughter's sake: I'm eagerly awaiting their next video. We've had everything from "knights", "dire wolves" and even "Harry Potter" so far...the east is routinely associated with "Nazis", so it seems but a bit of patience should be needed to see "Karl Marx and the People's Revolutionary Red Guard" show up. 😉 I'm finally past being embarrassed by any, entirely unwilling association with these people...so one might as well just have some chuckles at their antics.

2) I'd personally prefer the rational avoidance of arbitration's often perverse "magic", but I've little faith that'll be accomplished, at present. I'd love to be wrong in that assumption. Oh well...I'm just a line guy, nowhere near DFW, nor privy to any inner secrets, so I guess we'll all just have to wait and see.

 

[Black Swan]

The Nicolau is not just going to magically go away.

The east pilots are not going to get your do over.

A joint contract implements the Nicolau. We now have a fully completed merger going into the next merger with American. There will be 2 lists. The Nicolau for us air and the American list. That is the easiest legal way out. Anything other than the Nicolau places the company and usapa and the APA on dangerous ground.

Just how legally did the west lose our right to the Nicolau in your fantasy?

Unless you really want to go Into the merger with loa 93 against the new American contract.

Ask Roland Wilder how that would work out for you. East reserve captains making what line holding west FO's make. Arrange the list list you east pilots wanted with trump, by W2. How much did you make last year?

Do you really want a list that has all of the American WB pilots first, American captains, west captains, some east captains and west fo's, the rest of the east captains and finally the east fo's? It is federal arbitration anything could happen.

It is not going to be DOH or DOB lime you want.

You are missing the point time and again. Since when was the arbitration a law, and as it was an internal union proposal, you never got any legal standing to "lose" in the first place. This is why this issue has dragged on forever. Until your legal counsel does the responsible thing and finally tell you the truth, you are chasing shadows. I cannot understand why Ferguson of all people cannot have the courage to tell you the truth. There is nothing legal at all about the Nicolau. It is not a law. It is not an arbitration between an employer and the employed. It is simply a bargaining proposal.
The only thing you have been correct on in this entire issue is the binding of M/B. That will be binding. IF it comes to it, which I doubt the AA pilots will let it.

 

[cleardirect]

Agree that MB three way would result in best protection from a DFR suit, for everyone involved. Wonder though which is a greater risk to the pilots, another DFR try or continued SLI delay and opportunity for continued squables...

Nic was done five years ago, caused unimaginable discord and disputes, and failed to account for so many unforeseen factors... four bases have closed, West furloughs, massive hiring on the East, new planes coming East but not West, 25% of East routes now being flown by the West, a merger with AA, age 65 was implemented, horribly unequal perminent bid movement, (and the biggest unfairness.. PBGC money hasn't been split fairly to all pilots ).. the new merger was entirely unforeseen, the world is differnt. Do USAPA and APA have a legitimate responsablitly to account for what is going on in this merger and work out a SLI as part of the MOU in Dallas? Or should they punt to an arbitrator, like ALPA?

You guys are funny. Last wek you were all deathly afraid of arbitration and were convinced that it would be negotiated.

Now you are convinced that M/B will get you what you can not get.

The Nicolau is the only accepted list. The company has a seat at the table. A joint contract will implement the Nicolau list.

The east and west will be flying together long before an APA/ us air seniority list is decided by arbitration.

Thrash around all you want trying to avoid the investable. But you will live under the nicolau list.

Using anything other than the Nicolau list as judge Silver said puts usapa on dangerous ground. In a merger that puts usapa, us air, APA all on dangerous ground. Thankfully all the other parties understand that danger and will avoid it as rational people do.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Agree that MB three way would result in best protection from a DFR suit, for everyone involved. Wonder though which is a greater risk to the pilots, another DFR try or continued SLI delay and opportunity for continued squables...

Nic was done five years ago, caused unimaginable discord and disputes, and failed to account for so many unforeseen factors... four bases have closed, West furloughs, massive hiring on the East, new planes coming East but not West, 25% of East routes now being flown by the West, a merger with AA, age 65 was implemented, horribly unequal perminent bid movement, (and the biggest unfairness.. PBGC money hasn't been split fairly to all pilots ).. the new merger was entirely unforeseen, the world is differnt. Do USAPA and APA have a legitimate responsablitly to account for what is going on in this merger and work out a SLI as part of the MOU in Dallas? Or should they punt to an arbitrator, like ALPA?

Maybe from the west, but it wouldn't protect them from a DFR from East guys. It would be especially hard to defend putting forth a list that wasn't essentially DOH or LOS. since that's in their constitution. Just like someone just said, the west guys aren't the only ones with legal rights, even if they think they are.

 

[Bill Brasky]

You guys are funny. Last wek you were all deathly afraid of arbitration and were convinced that it would be negotiated.

Now you are convinced that M/B will get you what you can not get.

The Nicolau is the only accepted list. The company has a seat at the table. A joint contract will implement the Nicolau list.

The east and west will be flying together long before an APA/ us air seniority list is decided by arbitration.

Thrash around all you want trying to avoid the investable. But you will live under the nicolau list.

Using anything other than the Nicolau list as judge Silver said puts usapa on dangerous ground. In a merger that puts usapa, us air, APA all on dangerous ground. Thankfully all the other parties understand that danger and will avoid it as rational people do.

Parker already told you more than once exactly what the "accepting" part was all about. You really need to get on with another argument, because you're not gonna win with that one.

Personally, I don't see how any reasonable person wouldn't already conclude that the Nic is gone, dead. Before you westies argue, remember I said "reasonable".

 

[EastUS1]

The east and west will be flying together long before an APA/ us air seniority list is decided by arbitration.

Thrash around all you want trying to avoid the investable. But you will live under the nicolau list.

Thankfully all the other parties understand that danger and will avoid it as rational people do.

More thankfully; you do no one else's thinking for them and can clearly, only spout forth incredibly naive and purely opinionated BS. 😉

 

[cleardirect]

You are missing the point time and again. Since when was the arbitration a law, and as it was an internal union proposal, you never got any legal standing to "lose" in the first place. This is why this issue has dragged on forever. Until your legal counsel does the responsible thing and finally tell you the truth, you are chasing shadows. I cannot understand why Ferguson of all people cannot have the courage to tell you the truth. There is nothing legal at all about the Nicolau. It is not a law. It is not an arbitration between an employer and the employed. It is simply a bargaining proposal.
The only thing you have been correct on in this entire issue is the binding of M/B. That will be binding. IF it comes to it, which I doubt the AA pilots will let it.

Try and follow along.

The T/A is a legal document. Since it was signed under the RLA it is covered under the law.

The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

The law is DFR. The west has rights. The union ALPA and since usapa inherited that responsibility has a duty to represent the west fairly. An arbitration decided what was fair.

The Nicolau list. Therefore under RLA law, DFR law the west does have a legal right to the Nicolau list.

Three reasons why we are not using the Nicolau yet. The east failed to keep your word. Usapa failed to get a contract. Parker failed to have a spine and just tell the east that is the list he is going to use. The east allowed Parker to use that excuse to save hundreds of millions of dollars.

But Parker wants this merger. Money will make him grow a pair. In order to get this merger done he needs to settle our fight. Watch the Crandell interview. The fastest, least risk option is tell usapa it is the Nicolau deal with it.

Usapa can play nice and get a contract with maybe some say or Parker will turn is entire deal over to APA and they can finish very quickly without usapa input.

So take a new contract with some input and the Nicolau or have a new contract and the Nicolau imposed on you.

You guys scream about not having a vote. Guess what you are going to hate this.

No vote on the bargaining agent and not vote on a contract. Welcome to American bitches.

 

[EastUS1]

Personally, I don't see how any reasonable person wouldn't already conclude that the Nic is gone, dead. Before you westies argue, remember I said "reasonable".

Indeed.

 

[EastUS1]

Try and follow along.

Welcome to American bitches.

Ummm...are there ANY adults out there we could speak with?....Any at all? 😉 Heck!...I'd settle for just anyone with less megalomaniacal leanings than needed to assume they do the thinking and decision making for the entire APA....?

 

[traderjake]

Put the whole damn mess under M/B and let the chips fall. The NIC is a bust and so is straight DOH.

Do you believe the M/B arbitrators are going to disregard arbitrator Nicolau's ruling because USAPA wants them to?

The seniority list exist in the contract and the contract says the Nicolau Award is the seniority list until it is modified with the consent of the company.

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe from the west, but it wouldn't protect them from a DFR from East guys. It would be especially hard to defend putting forth a list that wasn't essentially DOH or LOS. since that's in their constitution. Just like someone just said, the west guys aren't the only ones with legal rights, even if they think they are.

A C&BL does not make a DFR.

You finally stumbled onto why this with go to arbitration. An arbitrators decision is done by a neutral third party not by the union. By definition it is fair. Therefore there is no case to sue the union for DFR if one side is not happy. Now do you understand why ALPA does it that way?

Who are you going to sue? The arbitrator? Would you sue usapa for not getting you DOH? They are gone? Plus look at the MDA case. They lost for a number of reasons but ALPA proved they did argue for the MDA guys they just did not get it.

Can't sue the west. We don't have any responsibility to represent east pilots.

But hey give it a try collect up some money. File a law suit and see just how hard it is to even get the case heard let alone win.

 

[cleardirect]

Parker already told you more than once exactly what the "accepting" part was all about. You really need to get on with another argument, because you're not gonna win with that one.

Personally, I don't see how any reasonable person wouldn't already conclude that the Nic is gone, dead. Before you westies argue, remember I said "reasonable".

Yet here we are still talking about it. The company needs to finish our merger before they move on. The on.y accepted list is the Nicolau.

I would say a reasonable person would conclude that the dream of DOH is dead.

 

[EastUS1]

The company needs to finish our merger before they move on.

Why would that be? What stops them from making it all into an inclusive package with American?...Or even maintaining disparate contracts, as they've done here for years? What possible benefits accrue to the company for making a purely US/LCC contract happen now?

 

[Bill Brasky]

A C&BL does not make a DFR.

You finally stumbled onto why this with go to arbitration. An arbitrators decision is done by a neutral third party not by the union. By definition it is fair. Therefore there is no case to sue the union for DFR if one side is not happy. Now do you understand why ALPA does it that way?

Who are you going to sue? The arbitrator? Would you sue usapa for not getting you DOH? They are gone? Plus look at the MDA case. They lost for a number of reasons but ALPA proved they did argue for the MDA guys they just did not get it.

Can't sue the west. We don't have any responsibility to represent east pilots.

But hey give it a try collect up some money. File a law suit and see just how hard it is to even get the case heard let alone win.

It doesn't. But a "wide range of reasonableness" does. It would be just as reasonable for an East guy that got screwed as it is for the west guys to file a DFR, except, of course, that DOH and LOS have long been a preferred method of merging employee groups. I think that actually gives the DOH/LOS guys more reason to sue than the west guys have now. I don't think it will affect me in either case, but watch how fast the lawsuits fly if a reasonable method doesn't prevail (no, I don't mean the Nic).

 

[Bill Brasky]

Try and follow along.

The T/A is a legal document. Since it was signed under the RLA it is covered under the law.

The T/A states that ALPA merger policy will be used and the company will accept that proposal. Once the company accepted it it was no longer a proposal but in fact the seniority list. Yes yes you will say usapa can modify the T/A. Only if the company agrees. Yet this week usapa was given the chance to do that the east reps voted down a resolution to modify that agreement.

The law is DFR. The west has rights. The union ALPA and since usapa inherited that responsibility has a duty to represent the west fairly. An arbitration decided what was fair.

The Nicolau list. Therefore under RLA law, DFR law the west does have a legal right to the Nicolau list.

Three reasons why we are not using the Nicolau yet. The east failed to keep your word. Usapa failed to get a contract. Parker failed to have a spine and just tell the east that is the list he is going to use. The east allowed Parker to use that excuse to save hundreds of millions of dollars.

But Parker wants this merger. Money will make him grow a pair. In order to get this merger done he needs to settle our fight. Watch the Crandell interview. The fastest, least risk option is tell usapa it is the Nicolau deal with it.

Usapa can play nice and get a contract with maybe some say or Parker will turn is entire deal over to APA and they can finish very quickly without usapa input.

So take a new contract with some input and the Nicolau or have a new contract and the Nicolau imposed on you.

You guys scream about not having a vote. Guess what you are going to hate this.

No vote on the bargaining agent and not vote on a contract. Welcome to American bitches.

Try and follow along...The TA is a document which is administered by the company AND the CBA, USAPA. It is subject to LEGAL change, with written agrement of both sides (actually, I'm not even sure it has to be written). So, in the interest of BOTH parties, in order to expedite or facilitate the merger, changes can be agreed to. USAPA has to protect the majority of it's members, that's it's charter, per the RLA and the NMB.

I expect some serious modifications of the TA if a contract is not agreed to first.

If you're a furloughed guy that has not accepted recall, YOU"RE SCREWED. You should be looking to sue whomever gave you that advice. It was pretty bad.