Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

The guy who wears pull ups just said:

"So, let's recap this turd called the MOU:
1. Pay increases that decrease depending on UAL or DAL's actions. Hmmmm. UNLESS THEY TAKE PAY CUTS OR PAY RAISES, THE RATES ARE FIRM.

4. No meaningful pay protections for displacements. Hmmm. COMPLETE PROTECTION, YOU JUST HAVE TO MOVE......

Greeter

Hmmm... " UNLESS THEY TAKE PAY CUTS OR PAY RAISES, THE RATES ARE FIRM." How can anyone then reasonably assert that the "RATES ARE FIRM"?...Well....Perhaps "FIRM" only until "UNLESS" happens of course....?

"YOU JUST HAVE TO MOVE......" And that's a "good thing"....How? Insurance agent to buyer: Congratulations! You now have complete flood coverage protection for your home!....You just have to move....? 😉

 

[Piedmont1984]

The latest CCC update has me thinking. I've never been comfortable with the 13.5% equity stake which the APA is getting in the New American Airlines. You can't get an equity stake in a bankrupt company, which is why we received two separate cash payments in our bankruptcy. No one knows what the value of the new company will be and our part of the synergy equation will certainly increase that value, all for the benefit of the old AA pilots and to the exclusion of the LCC pilots.

 

[signals]

[background=rgb(248, 248, 248)]This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by [/background]signals[background=rgb(248, 248, 248)].[/background]

Promises, promises! Watch out for the cliff.....

Meep-meep 😛 😛 😛

 

[EastUS1]

The latest CCC update has me thinking. I've never been comfortable with the 13.5% equity stake which the APA is getting in the New American Airlines. You can't get an equity stake in a bankrupt company, which is why we received two separate cash payments in our bankruptcy. No one knows what the value of the new company will be and our part of the synergy equation will certainly increase that value, all for the benefit of the old AA pilots and to the exclusion of the LCC pilots.

"You can't get an equity stake in a bankrupt company,.." Exactly so sir, thus; any such stake must be predicated on future value afterwards, which necesarily includes any/all value that the US side brings to the transaction and subsequent operations. What were those figures being bandied about?...Something like 1.2-1.5 BILLION dollars in annual synergies/etc? Aww heck! Why should any on the US side expect to equally benefit? 😉

"...all for the benefit of the old AA pilots and to the exclusion of the LCC pilots." Yep. ".. to the exclusion of the LCC pilots." How that can possibly seem entirely or even at all reasonable to anyone here escapes me.

 

[PullUp]

The guy who wears pull ups just said:

"So, let's recap this turd called the MOU:
1. Pay increases that decrease depending on UAL or DAL's actions. Hmmmm. UNLESS THEY TAKE PAY CUTS OR PAY RAISES, THE RATES ARE FIRM. AS JELLO IN A SAUNA.
2. Loss of First come, first serve jumpseat - now seniority based. Hmmm. BOO HOO. SENIORITY MATTERS. REMEMBER THAT LANYARD? REMEMBER THAT NEXT TIME I WALTZ DOWN THE JETWAY TO THE JUMPSEAT INSTEAD OF YOU.
3. Pay for pass riding. wonderful. I PLAN TO LIVE IN BASE, AS SHOULD YOU. NO PROBLEMO. I GUESS YOU DON'T GO ANYWHERE TO VISIT OR VACATION - JUST ANOTHER CONCESSION.
4. No meaningful pay protections for displacements. Hmmm. COMPLETE PROTECTION, YOU JUST HAVE TO MOVE TO WHERE THE JOB IS, SEE #3. WELCOME TO THE INDUSTRY, I AM ON CREW BASE NUMBER 6 AT THIS COMPANY, WITH AT LEAST ONE MORE MOVE COMING. BOO HOO. AND HOW MUCH DOES MOVING COST? DOES THE COMPANY COMPENSATE? DIDN'T THINK SO.
5. Pay more (much, much more) for healthcare. Hmmm. NOT $3500 A MONTH MORE. BUT A LITTLE MORE. COULD VERY WELL BE 3500/MO - DO THE MATH.
6. Vague and incomplete language subject to interpretation. Hmmm. JUST LIKE OUR LARGE RJ GRIEVANCE, LOA 93 PAY RESTORATION, AND OUR 3% RAISES? BETTER? WE GET IT . SO WHY NOT GET BETTER LANGUAGE THIS TIME? SHOULDN'T WE LEARN FROM OUR PAST MISTAKES OF RUSHING INTO BADLY WORDED CONTRACTS?
"
If it smells like a turd......IF YOU ARE SMELLING THAT WHEN YOU VOTE, YOU HAVE OTHER PROBLEMS. I SUGGEST DEPENDS WITH ODER PROTECTION.
NO. GOOD FOR YOU, YOUR CHOICE.

COMPANY SHILL. YOUR DEROGATORY SCREEN NAME SAYS ALL WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU THINK OF PILOTS.

Greeter

 

[PullUp]

The latest CCC update has me thinking. I've never been comfortable with the 13.5% equity stake which the APA is getting in the New American Airlines. You can't get an equity stake in a bankrupt company, which is why we received two separate cash payments in our bankruptcy. No one knows what the value of the new company will be and our part of the synergy equation will certainly increase that value, all for the benefit of the old AA pilots and to the exclusion of the LCC pilots.

The argument that I heard in the roadshow was that the AA guys are unsecured creditors (and have a seat on the UCC). Since the cuts and givebacks they suffered constitute 'credit' extended to the company and not compensated for, they are taking a negotiated portion of the equity in the new company as that compensation to clear their claim, same as any other creditor.
Our group does not have that status in the proceedings.
The assertion that our combined entity will bring greater value to the new company is valid. However, that doesn't magically get us a seat at the UCC committee table where the new equity is being divvied up.
We should be asking Parker for convertible LCC stock grants (not options) in the same amount as AA.
Of course, cash works well, too.
Sorry, still voting NO.

 

[luvthe9]

Jamie,

I'm disgusted by your voting record as PHL Vice Chairman. I don't support you, or this MOU. Sadly, the NAC has left us vulnerable to numerous risks under this MOU and given up too much in the process. Even more sad is the fact certain members of the BPR (you, DCA, & PHX) did not have the guts to fix the problems when you had the opportunity. Instead of taking a stand and getting an acceptable agreement, you push it on to the membership to do the the dirty work for you.

You say, "We have been told "no" by the company, "no" by the NMB, and now "no" by the UCC". Well, I say "NO" to the MOU!

Furthermore, I've lost faith in this union under Hummel's leadership. God help us.


Another happy customer !!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

I don't blame the NAC for the current progress of negotiations, but i sure as hell blame them for their self congratulatory notion that negotiations are over and everyone should party with DUI (same for the BPR cupcakes).

 

[luvthe9]

FROM AN AA PILOT.......

I think a bit of clarification is in order here with regard to that equity stake we got and why we got it.

When you look at what our guys lost with our new contract in expected pensions at retirement compared to what we'll now get with just a 14% 401k contribution, it was significant, particularly for the younger guys who didn't have a chance like I did to build up their A fund and are now forever frozen at F/O average pay and fewer years in the plan. Then when you look at what the productivity concessions due to expected career progression and quality of life, all but the most senior guys are harmed. Again, the more junior guys are really taking it in the shorts. Then the more senior guys like me just lost our possibility of a big lump sum payout on the A fund when we retire and are now butt-jammed with an annuity that ends when we (or a designated survivor) die, leaving nothing of that money to our estate. That one REALLY chaps my ass because I had an expected payout of between $500-600k coming from that lump sum which I hoped to bank and pass on to my kids. All of these things combined represent a significant loss to us as a result of AA's manufactured bankruptcy. The reason we have a seat on the UCC is that we have a significant claim against the company for those losses. And they know it. The 13.5% stake was offered to us to compensate us for our legal claim of damages that we could pursue in court. In return, we agreed to take that as full settlement of our damages claim, even though none of us believe we'll be anywhere nearly fully compensated for our losses. Bottom line, that stake represents a damages award. It was not just a windfall payout we got in negotiations. If we'd turned down the second TA, they'd have withdrawn that offer and we'd have had to go through a lengthy and costly court battle to extract our damages with no assurances we'd get even that much and very little chance of getting any more. Facing that choice, most guys took the bait and voted yes.

APA now has a committee determining how that pot of equity will be split up. First they're going to divide the money into several smaller pots (which they call silos) and then come up with formulas to determine how much each guy gets from that specific pot. For example, a guy with half my seniority will get twice what I get from the pension loss pot, more than me for the career progression loss pot, but less than me for the loss of lump sum pot. When all of these separate pots are calculated, we'll each learn what percentage we'll get of that 13.5% equity. It remains to be seen whether we'll be able to roll that money into IRA or 401k accounts or if we'll be forced (as Delta was) to take it in one lump sum as compensation, which would have major tax implications. APA's legal guys are working hard on getting appropriate legislation in place to allow us to defer the tax liability by rolling it into retirement accounts.

APA made it clear to us that the stake we were getting would be based upon whatever company exits from bankruptcy. Your guys are absolutely correct that we'll get more value from that equity if we merge because the value of the "New American" will very definitely be worth more merged than it would as a standalone company. Estimates I heard were that a merged company would likely boost the value of the equity stake by roughly 50%. My understanding is that if we merge after we exit BK, our equity will be in the standalone AA. If we elect to keep our shares instead of cashing out that equity, they may jump in value if a merger occurs later, but from all the indications I've heard, it seem more likely we'll merge before we exit.

Where USAPA may have a problem on getting a similar slice of the pie is that unlike APA there are no damages I'm aware of that you can claim so far as this deal is concerned. Where I personally think you guys have a claim is to compensate you for that successor clause you have in your current contract. That your union just gave that away is unconscionable to me. I hope that if your MOU approval goes down, you guys make it clear to Parker that was the main reason you voted no. You have that money coming and equity is probably his easiest way of dealing with it.

I know you told me this before, but when will the results be announced on your vote? Sounds from what you're sending me like there's a lot of NO momentum growing. Hopefully your guys will make the effort to educate themselves enough to make an informed decision rather than just follow like sheep.

Good luck,

 

[A320 Driver]

The latest CCC update has me thinking. I've never been comfortable with the 13.5% equity stake which the APA is getting in the New American Airlines. You can't get an equity stake in a bankrupt company, which is why we received two separate cash payments in our bankruptcy. No one knows what the value of the new company will be and our part of the synergy equation will certainly increase that value, all for the benefit of the old AA pilots and to the exclusion of the LCC pilots.

I don't agree. We are not excluded from the potential growth and benefits a healthy company would provide us. As far as equity stakes go, the estimate I was told we had at the first pass during the LOA93 negotiations would have put our individual stakes with a value around $80,000. Our MEC and Negotiating Committee took a pass and we ended up with about 10% of that. That is the sort of thing our leadership has brought us in the past. That is also why I take the judgment of our paid advisors over them. I don't want to lose again because a few idiots think they are geniuses at everything because they can fly a jet.

 

[luvthe9]

None of this is surprising to me. There is a total lack of knowledge on the NAC other than Dean and he is to overwhelmed to pay attention to all those little details like the outsourcing of hundreds of jobs. Ultimately it is the BPR that has failed. You guys should hammer the NAC for not performing for the Pilots. They are an open book to management and management has started to write the pages in that open book. John Owen is the guy behind ALL the financial data. Rick Salimat (spelling) is still involved. Rick has no formal accounting credentials and neither does John and these are the guys that we have presenting our financial positions. Management loves this! They know just how much that both John and Rick are faking it and are playing along so as not to uncover their incompetence.

USAPA has mishandled almost every area of this merger/contract negotiations to the point of being criminal. As I mentioned to you before the best thing about this merger is that USAPA will be taken over by APA and they don’t do such stupid things. The only problem is that this transition process will cost the Airways pilots hundreds of millions of dollars and years of carrier position losses. Really we deserve it because we are so F*****G STUPID!

 

[luvthe9]

don't want to lose again because a few idiots think they are geniuses at everything because they can fly a jet.

You are a loser and about to lose again so the best thing to do is just get use to it, You can always pretend to fly for Delta if you want.

 

[A320 Driver]

Jamie,

I'm disgusted by your voting record as PHL Vice Chairman. I don't support you, or this MOU. Sadly, the NAC has left us vulnerable to numerous risks under this MOU and given up too much in the process. Even more sad is the fact certain members of the BPR (you, DCA, & PHX) did not have the guts to fix the problems when you had the opportunity. Instead of taking a stand and getting an acceptable agreement, you push it on to the membership to do the the dirty work for you.

You say, "We have been told "no" by the company, "no" by the NMB, and now "no" by the UCC". Well, I say "NO" to the MOU!

Furthermore, I've lost faith in this union under Hummel's leadership. God help us.


Another happy customer !!!!!

How long does it take you to compose these posts?

 

[A320 Driver]

You are a loser and about to lose again so the best thing to do is just get use to it, You can always pretend to fly for Delta if you want.

I don't think we will lose anything. Also, I look forward to being anything but a US Air pilot. It was a #### outfit when it bought Piedmont and it is a #### outfit now.

 

[luvthe9]

How long does it take you to compose these posts?

Not long they are other pilots that want there thoughts known. Sorry they do not agree with you.