Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[PullUp]

USAPA put out an update this week. A letter was signed. The MOU may be ratified before the AMR board approves the merger.

Could you provide a link to it? I looked and couldn't find it. Nothing showed up in my inbox, either.

BTW, if you all haven't read it, Woody's latest missive on the MOU is very enlightening.
Here's the link: https://www.listbox....929320-5a728d94

It's not a good deal. In fact, it seems the whole thing is not legally enforceable.
If we sign it, we could be: without a contract, without a payraise, without our aircraft, without our min block hours.
I know, not likely, but how binding is this 'agreement' that is not a 'contract', but an 'understanding'.
I have a better idea. Modify our existing TA so that our underlying contract remains in place.
There are just too many unanswered questions that are supposed to be 'worked out' later. I know how that turns out.
NO.

 

[Pi brat]

Seajay & like minded ,


As a reserve 330 FO & a July 1, 2013 ED/POR I calculate a potential take home ( after tax ) loss of 14 G minus any offsets mgt can misinterpret the mou to their benefit . That includes sign bonus and retro pay.



WE played a huge part in enabling LCC to financially be able to pursue this wedding with a 28% take in a $10B merged company. Your willing to settle for substandard pay and very crappy language as a payoff for that involuntary investment we've all made.

I AM NOT.

FA
NO

FA,

I guess I'm a "like minded". I've tried to really listen to all the cons, the pros are pretty easy. Just a couple of points.

When we were voting for LOA 93 I read the pay rate date and thought it might end. I asked my rep and he said no, there was no snap back. Think about it, with all they took doesn't it make sense that the real intent was for them to not snap back? I was just hoping the company would get bitten by bad language for a while. The NAC and attorneys have said that they are well aware of the intent trap and have documented it. If we wait until we have every possible loophole closed we will stay on LOA 93 forever. I remember an attorney on CNBC saying one time that he has never found a contract that he couldn't get around.

That $14,000 loss. Can you explain that? Are you talking about losing if we don't vote for the MOU or if we do? How much is it if we vote against it, don't get C of C and sit on LOA for another couple of years while we negotiate a joint contract?

Our investment was voluntary, at least in the sense that the majority allowed it. Just as the majority has done with the seniority battle. We ratified LOA 93 and we decided that it was better to fight the Nic and allow the company to use it against us.

I share everyone's concerns. The thing is I see us in the west pilots position in this merger. We are the minority. Our company couldn't care less about us. I don't think they care for either side other than to get this done. I see the strength we have is that Horton has been using our SLI battle against Parker and by having the MOU Parker takes that weapon away. Once the merger is a done deal, that no longer matters. The reason I feel that way is that the mechanics also have C of C and I haven't seen anything about it and there doesn't seem to be a big push for a MOU with them or the F/As. If they NEED a MOU, why not with everyone? I think that if we vote this down we will still be in line for all the bad stuff without getting any of the better stuff.

It amazes me how guys talk about a "bankruptcy contract" and "not good enough for our sacrifice" when we staying on LOA 93 has been okay for all these years. When I compare the MOU and AA's contract I compare it to what I have and am likely to get on our own, not what UA and DL have. We have shown over and over again that we do not have what it takes to get a UA and DL contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Membership ratification.

Of a contract NOT seniority

 

[Piedmont1984]

Could you provide a link to it? I looked and couldn't find it. Nothing showed up in my inbox, either.

BTW, if you all haven't read it, Woody's latest missive on the MOU is very enlightening.
Here's the link: https://www.listbox....929320-5a728d94

It's not a good deal. In fact, it seems the whole thing is not legally enforceable.
If we sign it, we could be: without a contract, without a payraise, without our aircraft, without our min block hours.
I know, not likely, but how binding is this 'agreement' that is not a 'contract', but an 'understanding'.
I have a better idea. Modify our existing TA so that our underlying contract remains in place.
There are just too many unanswered questions that are supposed to be 'worked out' later. I know how that turns out.
NO.

USAPA web site - Merger Updates - Merger documents - MOU 18b letter.

 

[PullUp]

It amazes me how guys talk about a "bankruptcy contract" and "not good enough for our sacrifice" when we staying on LOA 93 has been okay for all these years.

That's just the point. It has NOT been OK to be on LOA93 for all these years. It has been abusive, especially in light of record profits.
But this is our last chance to recover something from Parker for that abuse.
Don't squander it. Make it bulletproof and ironclad.
If the merger occurs, we start our airline history over at zero, as the past has no bearing on the future. But, right now, it still does and should be considered.
If the money wasn't in this agreement, would you sign it? And, is the money enough to compensate you for what you're giving up?
Also, there is never a guarantee of a 'next' agreement. Present circumstances is my evidence to that fact.
What you sign now becomes your life until it is changed - on an unlimited timeline.
Think before you vote. Consider the future. Do you understand the consequences of this action?
Vote, then have a beer.
Cheers.

 

[nevergiveup]

USAPA web site - Merger Updates - Merger documents - MOU 18b letter.

Can the USAPA president make an change to the MOU? Is this something else he was trying to hide by not sending it to us in an email? Did anyone see this in a road show?

 

[PullUp]

Can the USAPA president make an change to the MOU?

Hmmm, isn't that the job of the NAC?
Has this side letter modification been evaluated by our legal staff for it's ramifications?
Doesn't the MOU now have to be re-evaluated by the BPR?
Does USAPA wish to reveal the outcome of the vote on Friday? Is that in it's best interest?
So many questions.......not enough answers.
----
One good way to delay the vote is to vote NO.
Just sayin'

 

[luvthe9]

Subj: We are losing Block-or-Better

[background=#fff]
[background=transparent]And the hits just keep on coming.

Something that has been seriously downplayed is that the new APA contract is going to only pay us for our actual block time. They haven't implemented it yet, so the APA boys are still enjoying Block-or-Better pay, like we do today. But once this thing is done, we are headed for a whole new world.

We are seriously over-blocked these days. Probably shouldn't count on seeing the full force of those shiny new pay rates, right? Anyone flying the Shuttle routes -- which are famously over-blocked -- is in for a very, very rude awakening![/background][/background][background=#fff]
[background=transparent] [/background][/background][background=#fff]
[background=transparent] [/background][/background][background=#fff]
[background=transparent]Going to be fun sitting in PHL on those stormy days and NOT get paid!!!![/background]

[/background]

 

[Pi brat]

That's just the point. It has NOT been OK to be on LOA93 for all these years. It has been abusive, especially in light of record profits.
But this is our last chance to recover something from Parker for that abuse.
Don't squander it. Make it bulletproof and ironclad.
If the merger occurs, we start our airline history over at zero, as the past has no bearing on the future. But, right now, it still does and should be considered.
If the money wasn't in this agreement, would you sign it? And, is the money enough to compensate you for what you're giving up?
Also, there is never a guarantee of a 'next' agreement. Present circumstances is my evidence to that fact.
What you sign now becomes your life until it is changed - on an unlimited timeline.
Think before you vote. Consider the future. Do you understand the consequences of this action?
Vote, then have a beer.
Cheers.

So pullup, who will make it bulletproof? Woody "I've got an AX!" Paul who is not on the NAC? The majority of the people currently running this union say we should vote for it. Even the CLT reps, right? I mean the C&BLs require that they send it our with a yes or no recommendation and I don't remember see a no.

I firmly believe that if this merger is going to happen it will be announced soon and when that happens our power goes poof. If I didn't feel that way I'd vote no.

The money outweighs what we are giving up. What is it in our current contract that the money doesn't overcome for you? The west pilots actually are giving up contract items, I don't see much on the east side.

I also see value in going to arbitration on an equal economic footing. The west pilots used the contract differential very effectively against us.

 

[Pi brat]

Subj: We are losing Block-or-Better


[background=#fff][background=transparent]And the hits just keep on coming.

Something that has been seriously downplayed is that the new APA contract is going to only pay us for our actual block time. They haven't implemented it yet, so the APA boys are still enjoying Block-or-Better pay, like we do today. But once this thing is done, we are headed for a whole new world.

We are seriously over-blocked these days. Probably shouldn't count on seeing the full force of those shiny new pay rates, right? Anyone flying the Shuttle routes -- which are famously over-blocked -- is in for a very, very rude awakening![/background][/background]


[background=#fff][background=transparent]Going to be fun sitting in PHL on those stormy days and NOT get paid!!!![/background][/background]

Isn't if block or better for the trip?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Could you provide a link to it? I looked and couldn't find it. Nothing showed up in my inbox, either.

BTW, if you all haven't read it, Woody's latest missive on the MOU is very enlightening.
Here's the link: https://www.listbox....929320-5a728d94

It's not a good deal. In fact, it seems the whole thing is not legally enforceable.
If we sign it, we could be: without a contract, without a payraise, without our aircraft, without our min block hours.
I know, not likely, but how binding is this 'agreement' that is not a 'contract', but an 'understanding'.
I have a better idea. Modify our existing TA so that our underlying contract remains in place.
There are just too many unanswered questions that are supposed to be 'worked out' later. I know how that turns out.
NO.

This has been the crux of the matter since last fall. What "exactly" is an MOU and how much OR how little is the value of it, other than the mantra of "it gives us a seat at the table" maranatha.

The more I read the MOU I simply don't see the logic other than a permission slip to "tag along" with us and dance among the daisies.

If we truly want to be included in the process, voting this "MOU"/? down and starting over is the best for ALL, East and West. What's in it for the both of us?

It makes APA EXPOSE more of its "ideas" on exactly where we fit in on the playing field. Remember, AMR and US management are dukeing it out behind the scenes without OUR input, why shouldn't we reciprocate?

I understand that "he who has the gold makes the rules" but the BK court controls the purse strings. We are a minority in pilot numbers, but we could put one heck of a legal dent in the operation if the judge agrees with us.

He is an idea from the company play book: Lets take some of our dues money and buy enough cheap AMR stock so we can get into the UCC game? (Unions traditionally have never though outside the box).

 

[767one]

FA,

I guess I'm a "like minded". I've tried to really listen to all the cons, the pros are pretty easy. Just a couple of points.

When we were voting for LOA 93 I read the pay rate date and thought it might end. I asked my rep and he said no, there was no snap back. Think about it, with all they took doesn't it make sense that the real intent was for them to not snap back? I was just hoping the company would get bitten by bad language for a while. The NAC and attorneys have said that they are well aware of the intent trap and have documented it. If we wait until we have every possible loophole closed we will stay on LOA 93 forever. I remember an attorney on CNBC saying one time that he has never found a contract that he couldn't get around.

That $14,000 loss. Can you explain that? Are you talking about losing if we don't vote for the MOU or if we do? How much is it if we vote against it, don't get C of C and sit on LOA for another couple of years while we negotiate a joint contract?

Our investment was voluntary, at least in the sense that the majority allowed it. Just as the majority has done with the seniority battle. We ratified LOA 93 and we decided that it was better to fight the Nic and allow the company to use it against us.

I share everyone's concerns. The thing is I see us in the west pilots position in this merger. We are the minority. Our company couldn't care less about us. I don't think they care for either side other than to get this done. I see the strength we have is that Horton has been using our SLI battle against Parker and by having the MOU Parker takes that weapon away. Once the merger is a done deal, that no longer matters. The reason I feel that way is that the mechanics also have C of C and I haven't seen anything about it and there doesn't seem to be a big push for a MOU with them or the F/As. If they NEED a MOU, why not with everyone? I think that if we vote this down we will still be in line for all the bad stuff without getting any of the better stuff.

It amazes me how guys talk about a "bankruptcy contract" and "not good enough for our sacrifice" when we staying on LOA 93 has been okay for all these years. When I compare the MOU and AA's contract I compare it to what I have and am likely to get on our own, not what UA and DL have. We have shown over and over again that we do not have what it takes to get a UA and DL contract.

Pi Brat,
I'm retired so can't vote but can still be affected by what goes on with the mou/contract. I have a concern about the non-qualified funds (Davy dollars). During MOU #1 I asked the retirement insurance folks if those funds were at risk and the answer was probably not. I'm still waiting on the answer about MOU part deux. Don't know if you have any of those Davy dollars but just because they show up on the Fidelity web site does not mean that they are inviolable. We have to remember they are notational in nature, the money is not really in the fund. When I got my first Davy dollar check I expected it to come from Fidelity but it came from USAirways.

If anyone has any info on the Davy dollars that they got from the road shows it would be greatly appreciated. My guess is that they are going to be gone if they are not mentioned.

Hope all is well with you and yours,

Regards,

Bob Moore

 

[PullUp]

He is an idea from the company play book: Lets take some of our dues money and buy enough cheap AMR stock so we can get into the UCC game? (Unions traditionally have never though outside the box).

Great idea, but that time, I'm afraid, is past us now.

 

[luvthe9]

Sign Now, Ask Questions Later!

…on the eve of the MOU Vote, the MOU is modified...what exactly are we now voting on?





[font="""]Fellow pilots, why is our union (certain officers and board members excepted) – chasing this deal so very hard? If the deal is good for all, then they will come to USAPA, as they must, so long as our Contract isn’t signed away in the MOU.
If we give up Scope and Change of Control for a promise from a bankrupt airline, whose reputation in mergers is ferocious, we are idiots. If we do the same, based upon the promises from Doug Parker, we are imbeciles.
We are not signing onto a “bankruptcy contract”….we are signing on to a deal that puts us below the pilots of that bankrupt carrier, in equity, opportunity for access to ALL the airframes, destinations and types of flying of the ersatz combined airline.[font="""]
We are not guaranteed the FACT of an implemented combined single seniority list, access to the airplanes, equity of flight time in crew bases and access to those former American crew bases. All the MOU provides for is an EFFORT in the direction of what we think of as a “Merger”.
You think life will be the same, except you will make more money? PBS, Green Book; nearly 400 pages of crappy language that will be culture shock to the majority of us.
Need an example? In the Green Book, if any leg is scheduled for 5+00 hrs. and you fly it, Allegheny Style in 4+21, you get paid 4+21. No more scheduled or actual, whichever is greater. No more pay bank. Since we average 3-4% under fly, month, over month, subtract 3-4% from that new pay rate. Just one little nugget in a 400 page minefield. But don’t worry, your NAC says they will try to fix that problem; just like management will try to integrate the seniority lists, implement them and not fence us out of DFW, ORD and LAX for 10 years.
The merger has such potential. The terms of this MOU are a disaster. The law and our contract say that a no vote isn’t the end; it’s the beginning of a more equitable deal.
In the last two days of the MOU Referendum, Gary Hummel and a few of the Board members have decided it is okay to materially change the MOU, (para. 18). This is a black and white document which has been the sole focus of your consideration and its content cannot be materially changed, without invalidating the spirit and perhaps the legality of the results of the election. Further, to announce those results before AMR endorses the merger, is the silliest squandering of our leverage, since Para. 14 GAVE AWAY our Scope and Change of Control.[font="""]
Welcome to amateur hour with your future in the balance. Call your representatives and demand that the election cycle be extended until AMR decides to s**t, or get off the pot. (sorry for the scatological analogy…it seems so apt, when discussing the MOU!)[/font][/font][/font]

 

[nic4us]

How about BS&T?

Ah...you'd make me so very happy!