Deep Throat

[local 12 proud]

there really is no point in splitting hairs about which Union is leading the decimation of our quality of life, the point is that they all are and nothings being done about it. now on the other hand, the membership is voting to accept all the concessions that are brought back by the Company/Union because most are weak at the stomach and in debt up to their eyeballs.This generation has not had to suffer due to lack of anything and therefore are not willing to risk losing those material things they have come to enjoy. we are a Nation of wealth but the scales are constantly tipping and we will destroy the lives of our children, grand children and several more generations after that if WE THE PEOPLE dont take charge.

 

[seed]

Who 's union is spineless and who's union has misled or not led is really not an issue now. Is AMFA catching undo heat over their vote? Perhaps...but it was the AMFA that proclaimed "no concessions". The TWU membership voted for concessions, as stated by members in here, since when? 1983?...Point being...it was the membership. The AMFA membership voted for concessions now...again...it was the membership, not Delle or Jim.

I agree also on the fact that the present generation of amt's have not seen bad years...YET. I thought I had...having already losst 2376 days to furlough prior to the upcoming one, but I feel i haven't seen a drop as to compared what is coming down the pike to those amt's and other workers left at the major airlines.

Would a leader PLEASE STAND UP?

 

[Bob Owens]

seed,Jun 3 2005, 12:21 AM]
Informer, I agree, and am not meaning to place salt on open wounds. I knew AMFA would not be any different than the TWU/IBT/IAM or any other.

Well the TWU is quite different.

For one, lets not forget that the concessions the TWU put in place, with a company that was not Bankrupt, was way, way beyond what the IAM had put in place at either the bankrupt USAIR or the bankrupt UAL at the time.

If you look at the concessions those other two airlines were seeking before May of 2003, basically they were seeking to get the same concessions and costs that AA got from the TWU over the years. Some dating back to 1983.

The recent UAL contract that was ratified under AMFA, with the company in its third year of bankruptcy, basically matches what we gave up two years ago.

We set the going rate. In fact they could not have done it without MCI. If MCI was eliminated the vote would have failed.


"But UAL workers lost their pension" is what we are likely to hear from TWU supporters. Well they will no longer build into the defined benifit but they got a portable 5% match 401K. While not great it does have its good points. This fund will start to build up now, its portable money. It does not tie your future to the company.

In the meantime our pension is under funded to the max allowed by law and AA, along with the TWU is lobbying the government to allow to to underfund it even more.

So what is likely to happen is that the liability gets so large that down the road the company will eliminate it. So we will end up losing our DB plan later instead of sooner. Later when we will have even less time to build up our 401K. The fact is if we had a 5% 401K now, it would cost the company more than the DB plan is costing them.

Its possible that the company is hoping for interest rates or the performance of the stock market to go up, so as in past years they not only dont have to contribute anything but possibly even withdraw excess funds. Banking on 1990s numbers is foolish.

But if rates do not go up the company will still have won, especially if their joint lobbying efforts with the unions pay off. Then they will have saved all that money that all those companies that jumped into the DC plans paid out and could still walk away from the obligation they made to us.

And our TWU will say "Blame AMFA ".

If you want a DB plan your best bet is to kiss a$$ your way into the International. There, you not only never get pay and benifit cuts but you will get a membership financed pension plan that is second to none.

You multiplier will be 2.5 times your best year, instead of 1.667 times the average of your best four out of your last ten.

Once retired, you get a 5% COLA raise EVERY YEAR. So retired TWU officials get raises that are more than three times what we are getting over the 6 years of this contract.


As an International employee, you not only get such a fabulous pension plan but you never have to worry about a membership vote.

All you have to do is make sure that there are enough people paying dues to fund the pension and your salaries.


Our profession, as major O/H AMT's for the big name airlines is gone. What, I believe, is happening now is the TWU scurring to regroup our members to a 3rd party vendor attitude. I foresee more wage concessions to become competitive with AAR and others. Are the line stations safe? Certainly not. Once they allow the thousands of amt's that are unemployed, to starve they will attack the last fronteir, with able bodied "starved" amt's....hang on...the ride is just beginning.

Do you actually know any mechanics that are unemployed? All the ones that I know of have other jobs. Many of those laid off have said they are not coming back. Not too many are worried about starving mechanics taking their jobs, in fact many are simply leaving.

Over the last year I've seen around ten guys that I've worked with for at least a decade or more simply walk in and quit. The scores of guys who are here from KC and STL are getting tired of having their families 1500 miles away and sleeping in hot beds. Commuting back and forth is taking a toll on those guys. If not for doubles the place would completely collapse. They certainly cant afford to move their families here and unless they do doubles they would not be able to see their families. Another year or so of this and even they will be quitting. With the better mechanics leaving and the stress on the ones that remain the question shouldnt be are the stations safe but rather are the airplanes safe?


By the way, Deep Throat from the TWU must be Jim Little. Lets not forget that he was in management for several years and even his father in law was management.

 

[local 12 proud]

Bob we are watching the total collapse of an Industry not unlike the American Steel Mill, sadly you and I are only along for the ride and we can choose to retrain and move on, or we can be the Band on deck making noise as the Titanic takes on water!

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob we are watching the total collapse of an Industry not unlike the American Steel Mill, sadly you and I are only along for the ride and we can choose to retrain and move on, or we can be the Band on deck making noise as the Titanic takes on water!

[post="275220"][/post]​

Or we can fight back, but if we are split between five different unions where most of the leaders who control those unions are unaffected by what happens to the members and cant be held accountable for their lack of leadership we have no chance whatsoever.

The fact is this is very unlike American Steel. This industry is still expanding, so is productivity, and overall so is revenue. If the Steel industry went on strike they could easily either build up inventory prior to the strike get the steel from abroad. If all the unionized workers went on strike at the same time it would cripple the economy to a greater degree than the Longshoremans strike.

Contrary to the collapse of the industry we are in fact seeing the collapse of the labor movement.

 

[TWU informer]

Contrary to the collapse of the industry we are in fact seeing the collapse of the labor movement.

[post="275249"][/post]​

That is CORRECT!

There is no Labor Movement, there is a bunch of self made wealthy fat cats running the unions, and they are not about to rock any boat to save the hard working man's standard of living. Instead they are dues collectors or campaign financers for the other group of wealthy fats commonly called politicians.

"They've got theirs brother"

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Bob we are watching the total collapse of an Industry not unlike the American Steel Mill, sadly you and I are only along for the ride and we can choose to retrain and move on, or we can be the Band on deck making noise as the Titanic takes on water!

[post="275220"][/post]​

Instead of playing in the band as the water rises above our heads I would prefer to stop playing and start preventing the water from coming in. How? By fighting TOGETHER! The twu supporters better wake the Hell up and realize that their shoes are wet too.

I know that there are enough AMTs out there, both laid off and working to turn the tide. Our profession needs the support of each and every one of us. The public needs to become aware of the attack on our profession. Like Bob Owens stated, the stress is reaching the top. Skilled AMTs are leaving and the replacements are not there. When an AMT leaves why come back to less pay and less benefits? They would rather stay where they have a future.

As for standing together where is the afl-cio? Are AMTs telling their respective Locals at their airlines to come to the aid of all AMTs? SWA's Dallas Local did. AA's NY Local has been sent a letter asking just that. What will their President's and E-Board's answer be?

 

[TWU informer]

As for standing together where is the afl-cio? Are AMTs telling their respective Locals at their airlines to come to the aid of all AMTs? SWA's Dallas Local did. AA's NY Local has been sent a letter asking just that. What will their President's and E-Board's answer be?

[post="275333"][/post]​

ANSWER:


I've Got Mine Brother!

 

[local 12 proud]

Ken, I have been FIGHTING since "91" for change in representation against the corrupt TWU. I have not given up and with 20+ years in aviation Im not ready to leave it, but when is enough of being steadily raped by your Company and their Lap dog union enough? I have never seen the Morale this low at AA in my almost 15 years of service, yet we cant seem to boot this joke of a bargaining agent to the curb! Ive resigned my AMFA card as always, but I know of several on my dock who will not resign because they believe its a lost cause, essentially they've thrown in the towel! we as AMT's are being decimated and theres a storm on the horizon, WILL WE SURVIVE? Yea people better wake the hell up and fast.

 

[MCI transplant]

seed,Jun 3 2005, 12:21 AM]
Informer, I agree, and am not meaning to place salt on open wounds.  I knew AMFA would not be any different than the TWU/IBT/IAM  or any other. 

Well the TWU is quite different.

For one, lets not forget that the concessions the TWU put in place, with a company that was not Bankrupt, was way, way beyond what the IAM had put in place at either the bankrupt USAIR or the bankrupt UAL at the time.

If you look at the concessions those other two airlines were seeking before May of 2003, basically they were seeking to get the same concessions and costs that AA got from the TWU over the years. Some dating back to 1983.

The recent UAL contract that was ratified under AMFA, with the company in its third year of bankruptcy, basically matches what we gave up two years ago.

We set the going rate. In fact they could not have done it without MCI. If MCI was eliminated the vote would have failed.
"But UAL workers lost their pension" is what we are likely to hear from TWU supporters. Well they will no longer build into the defined benifit but they got a portable 5% match 401K. While not great it does have its good points. This fund will start to build up now, its portable money. It does not tie your future to the company.

In the meantime our pension is under funded to the max allowed by law and AA, along with the TWU is lobbying the government to allow to to underfund it even more.

So what is likely to happen is that the liability gets so large that down the road the company will eliminate it. So we will end up losing our DB plan later instead of sooner. Later when we will have even less time to build up our 401K. The fact is if we had a 5% 401K now, it would cost the company more than the DB plan is costing them.

Its possible that the company is hoping for interest rates or the performance of the stock market to go up, so as in past years they not only dont have to contribute anything but possibly even withdraw excess funds. Banking on 1990s numbers is foolish.

But if rates do not go up the company will still have won, especially if their joint lobbying efforts with the unions pay off. Then they will have saved all that money that all those companies that jumped into the DC plans paid out and could still walk away from the obligation they made to us.

And our TWU will say "Blame AMFA ".

If you want a DB plan your best bet is to kiss a$$ your way into the International. There, you not only never get pay and benifit cuts but you will get a membership financed pension plan that is second to none.

You multiplier will be 2.5 times your best year, instead of 1.667 times the average of your best four out of your last ten.

Once retired, you get a 5% COLA raise EVERY YEAR. So retired TWU officials get raises that are more than three times what we are getting over the 6 years of this contract.
As an International employee, you not only get such a fabulous pension plan but you never have to worry about a membership vote.

All you have to do is make sure that there are enough people paying dues to fund the pension and your salaries.
Our profession, as major O/H AMT's for the big name airlines is gone.  What, I believe, is happening now is the TWU scurring to regroup our members to a 3rd party vendor attitude.  I foresee more wage concessions to become competitive with AAR and others.  Are the line stations safe?  Certainly not.  Once they allow the thousands of amt's that are unemployed, to starve they will attack the last fronteir, with able bodied "starved" amt's....hang on...the ride is just beginning.

Do you actually know any mechanics that are unemployed? All the ones that I know of have other jobs. Many of those laid off have said they are not coming back. Not too many are worried about starving mechanics taking their jobs, in fact many are simply leaving.

Over the last year I've seen around ten guys that I've worked with for at least a decade or more simply walk in and quit. The scores of guys who are here from KC and STL are getting tired of having their families 1500 miles away and sleeping in hot beds. Commuting back and forth is taking a toll on those guys. If not for doubles the place would completely collapse. They certainly cant afford to move their families here and unless they do doubles they would not be able to see their families. Another year or so of this and even they will be quitting.  With the better mechanics leaving and the stress on the ones that remain the question shouldnt be are the stations safe but rather are the airplanes safe?
By the way, Deep Throat from the TWU must be Jim Little. Lets not forget that he was in management for several years and even his father in law was management.

[post="275217"][/post]​

<_< Bob! On most issues we agree, But I can not set back and let you blame the concessionary contract on MCI!!!! We've been over this before, but I'll ask it again! If Little had called for a revote because of the fact that God knows how many "PIN NUMBERS" were with held, can you or anyone else predict what the outcome would have been!! I don't think so!!! And!!! How many of those "PIN NUMBERS" that was needed to vote, were with held from MCI????? I don't know! And nether do you!!!!!Let's put the blame where it belongs! On Mr. Little & company for raming through an illegal vote!!!!!Not on the "redheaded stepchildren of aa!" :angry:

 

[Dan Cunningham]

The debaate regarding the AMFA v. TWU is still as important today as it was 43 odd years ago when a scrappy AA mechanic named O. V. Delle-Femine started the fight against a dictatorial TWU heierarchy led by Mr. Mike Quill, who, up until 1948, was an avowed member of the communist party. In keeping with communist party dictates, and now mandated by affiliate unions and their almighty keeper, the afl-cio, members/believers use every known dirty trick to attempt to undermine the voice of the masses. This arguement isn't about concessions in one industry as much as it is a squashing of the democratic voices of every worker who is tired of paying dues and affiliation fees and receiving nothing but lip service from those "fatcats" that hire felons, convicted drunks, dopers, and disingenious frauds to lead their charge against decent, honest, hardworking men and women that are forced to pay compulsory dues to agents that fight against them.

In, MIKE QUILL - Himself*, Shirley Quill, Mike's second wife, identifies that Mike was the only person to vote against the merger of the afl with the cio. Mike went so far as to state his belief that it would be the death of the American labor movement. How correct he was. Now, second in command at Mike's alma mater is non other than a company agent, Mr. Jim Little, a corporate BootLicker that is willing to enlist the aid of the afore mentioned dregs of society to help aa, twu and, ultimately, the afl-cio maintain their control of the masses while they denegrate our collective standard of living.

QUILL - HIMSELF would be more than mildly nauseated at this turn of events.

*Mike Quill - Himself pages 240-250

 

[TWU informer]

The debaate regarding the AMFA v. TWU is still as important today as it was 43 odd years ago when a scrappy AA mechanic named O. V. Delle-Femine started the fight against a dictatorial TWU heierarchy led by Mr. Mike Quill, who, up until 1948, was an avowed member of the communist party. In keeping with communist party dictates, and now mandated by affiliate unions and their almighty keeper, the afl-cio, members/believers use every known dirty trick to attempt to undermine the voice of the masses. This arguement isn't about concessions in one industry as much as it is a squashing of the democratic voices of every worker who is tired of paying dues and affiliation fees and receiving nothing but lip service from those "fatcats" that hire felons, convicted drunks, dopers, and disingenious frauds to lead their charge against decent, honest, hardworking men and women that are forced to pay compulsory dues to agents that fight against them.

In, MIKE QUILL - Himself*, Shirley Quill, Mike's second wife, identifies that Mike was the only person to vote against the merger of the afl with the cio. Mike went so far as to state his belief that it would be the death of the American labor movement. How correct he was. Now, second in command at Mike's alma mater is non other than a company agent, Mr. Jim Little, a corporate BootLicker that is willing to enlist the aid of the afore mentioned dregs of society to help aa, twu and, ultimately, the afl-cio maintain their control of the masses while they denegrate our collective standard of living.

QUILL - HIMSELF would be more than mildly nauseated at this turn of events.

*Mike Quill - Himself pages 240-250

[post="275391"][/post]​

Maybe so Dan, but what difference does it make if members of AMFA are going to willfully accept concessions also?

I was at one time mindful of the Communist History and Background of the TWU and Quill.

But to put it as one man says often "the proof is in the pudding" and I all the pudding has to offer is concessions regardless of forced by dictator rule, or by democratic vote. It is still concessions, not matter how you get there.

It is only those that sacrifice everything like those at Eastern against Lorenzo that will change the current culture of concessions at will, and it appears there are no workers willing to take the fight to that level, thus we will continue the downward slide until one group has had enough and takes their management to the mat.

Will it be AMFA or an Industrial Union?

Who knows.

 

[Bob Owens]

Given the choice between a Communist (Quill)and a member of management (Little)who would you rather have running your union?

I'll take the Communist because at least I know he wont end up in bed with the company.

To me Quills affiliation with the Communist is a non-topic. As he said he would have allied himself with the devil himself if thats what it took to help the workers. Lets also not forget that the Unuted States Government allied itself with the Communists to defeat a greater evil during WWII, the Nazis.

Todays TWU leaders share more in common with the Nazis than the Communists. The Nazis loved corporations and thwarted workers rights-just like the TWU.

The fact is that Quills Socialist roots are from the Connelly sect in Ireland where Quill was an IRA Freedom Fighter who helped drive the English out of Ireland. That brand of Socialism was very different from Leninism, or Stalinism. In fact the organization that Connelly helped to found is located in the very same spot where it was in 1916 when the English blew it up.

As far as the AMFA concessions at UAL goes, unless you quit AA after we had the Industry Leading Concessions rammed down our throats you have no right to criticize. The UAL concessions are not Industry Leading as ours were, in fact they came just short of matching our concessions, and they are in their third year of BK.

When we allowed American Airlines to use the "threat" of bankruptcy to gut our contracts way beyond what USAIR or UAL were able to achieve in bankruptcy we destroyed the profession.

We also destroyed the ability of any of the workers at bankrupt companies to say No to more concessions.

How could they argue to the Judge that the demands were unreasonable when the largest carrier in the world, AA, a solvent company, had those very same conditions in place for at least two years, some for over 20 years?

The question is how do we rebuild our profession?

With the same union, the TWU , that was the most instramental in destroying it?

The TWU, an organization that has nothing but contempt for mechanics? (Dont be fooled by the recent attempts by the TWU to claim to support the AMTA, the movement for AMT day, or recognition of Charles Taylor. The TWU removed Chuck Schalk from office for attending a Charles Taylor event.)

Or do we try to join together with our brothers from other carriers and try something new?

Unfortunately we will not have an EAL out there to stop the carnage this time. Over at UAL AMFA had publically made it known that they were willing to support other workers, however those other unions were not willing to recipricate. At EAL the other unions supported the IAM.

We ended up like this because the workers in this industry are fractured up so many ways its remarkable that it didnt happen sooner. The structure of unionism has remained virtually unchanged since deregulation. We need to consolidate. With competitive companies operating in the same markets we must speak as one either along craft or industrial lines. Either strategy could be effective, but one thing is certian, that being organized along corporate lines, where we compete with other workers in a race to the bottom is one where we all lose.

We need to continue to try and consolidate under AMFA, and we should encourage our coworkers in other departments to do the same with the AGW. Then along with the pilots and flight attendants from an alliance to win back what was taken from us.

Change from within will not work. For one thing we know that the TWU will not tolerate attempts to change from within and as Jim Little stated "we dont need structural changes" , "we need to communicate, communicate, communicate". In other words keep talking until you have convinced the members that concessions are a good thing. That members should be willing to sacrifice so the International can continue to pay themselves six figure salaries and grant themselves generous pensions. In other words push Nazism. Goebbles would be proud.

Even if "change from within" were possible with the TWU how much could you change it? Could it be changed enough to meet our needs? Even if we made the TWU Democratic and accountable how would that fix the structural problem airline workers face?

It wouldnt. Having one democratic, accountable, union in place amongst a slew of autocratic unions will not help the workers in the industry because they will remain divided. We all must get into the same position.

The fact is that the TWU, IAM, ALPA and AFA all said that they were powerless to stop what happened to us.

Why?

Because the Airlines were losing money?

So, Amtrack has been losing money for years yet its still running?

More people fly on Ual or Usair than use Amtrack.

Did the AFL-CIO broker a deal to sell us out for continued funding for Amtrack?

Why are Amtrack workers still getting generous pensions from an industry that has been losing money, and funded by the government for years, while airline workers are seeing their contracts gutted and pensions dissapear?

Why were these unions powerless? Because they are competing with each other for dues. Since they view the other organizations as "competitors" and the members are captive they see no need to cooperate for the betterment of the members.

They compete for members by undercutting each other and trying to gain members by giving the employer where they have members the ability to grow at their competitors expense. The is a losing situation for the workers.

This is something that cant be fixed "from within". Since we need to unite the industry and other AFL-CIO unions represent many of the same workers we need to unite with how could we overcome that? Would those unions be willing to give up their members, and the RLA guaranteed dues supply, for the betterment of the members? Not likely.

I posed such questions to the AFL-CIO several years ago, and the reply I got is that it never would happen. We could never get all those airline workers united either under craft or industrial lines while working within the AFL-CIO. The leaders of the unions in the industry, while they all admit that its a good idea to unite all the airline workers would never allow it to happen because in a consolidated labor movemt their cushy job would be at risk. The only way to unite the industry would be to form or join a union outside of the AFL-CIO and then join the AFL-CIO.

Dan is right, the issue of staying the course with the TWU and concessions or trying to unite our profession under AMFA is just as important now as ever, if not even more so.

 

[Boomer]

Industries, like national economies go through expansion and contraction periods.

Unlike the sunny day Patriots, I believe that only those from the Maintenance & Related class and craft should represent that membership.

The IAM and the TWU have given away highly paid AMT jobs to lower classifications for years so that they could preserve dues. Many on this board talk about the true democracy denied them by the NMB/AFL-CIO/Industrial Union complex and then abandon their objective because those that possess what they say they desire do not vote in a manner consistent with their needs.

Grow a set and remember that the walk of a thousand miles begins with the first steps.

Is the outcome at UAL disapointing?: he11 yes.

Is the goal larger than our indivudual needs?: he11 yes.

As someone once said, "Success has a thousand Fathers', defeat but one."

If the AMFA Members at UAL want to recall their Leadership, they can. With the TWU that is not an option. Removing the pay and perks of those that fail to represent us is the first step in taking control of our futures. Anyone from the TWU must first replace the TWU before asking others to fall on their swords when we have been far too afraid of taking the remedy we proscribe for others.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken, I have been FIGHTING since "91" for change in representation against the corrupt TWU. I have not given up and with 20+ years in aviation Im not ready to leave it, but when is enough of being steadily raped by your Company and their Lap dog union enough? I have never seen the Morale this low at AA in my almost 15 years of service, yet we cant seem to boot this joke of a bargaining agent to the curb! Ive resigned my AMFA card as always, but I know of several on my dock who will not resign because they believe its a lost cause, essentially they've thrown in the towel! we as AMT's are being decimated and theres a storm on the horizon, WILL WE SURVIVE? Yea people better wake the hell up and fast.

[post="275347"][/post]​

Local 12 Proud, I know you are a fighter. And always will be. My post was in answer to yours but directed at those who sit on the sideline and whine but do nothing. These are the people who cry the ship is sinking while they get wet doing nothing.

It will be people like you and others across our system that are going to stop this ship from sinking.