Either one local or two contracts !

[bigjets]

Since we are going to lose the line locals, why not have one huge powerful local where all the mechs, line OH and OSMs are on the same team, rather then pitting line local against OH local for available funds on our future contracts.

Or have separate contracts one for OH one for line. That way OH gets fair market value and line gets fair market value.

 

[TWU informer]

Since we are going to lose the line locals, why not have one huge powerful local where all the mechs, line OH and OSMs are on the same team, rather then pitting line local against OH local for available funds on our future contracts.

Or have separate contracts one for OH one for line. That way OH gets fair market value and line gets fair market value.

Why not stop driving the TWU wedge in deeper and vote AMFA on the property instead?

 

[Overspeed]

Why not stop driving the TWU wedge in deeper and vote AMFA on the property instead?

Yeah! AMFA knows how to deal with issue of overhaul and line. Outsource overhaul. Problem solved. How many overhaul mechanic jobs has AMFA protected? Anyone? Bueller? That's right, none. 15,000 lost jobs over 8 years has got to be a new record.

The real question for Diamond Dave should be how many non-A&P jobs have they given up where AMFA represented the membership? Very few, in fact AMFA has tried in the. Past to get the NMB to create a new class and craft to get rid of those pesky unlicensed mechanics.

 

[Overspeed]

Since we are going to lose the line locals, why not have one huge powerful local where all the mechs, line OH and OSMs are on the same team, rather then pitting line local against OH local for available funds on our future contracts.

Or have separate contracts one for OH one for line. That way OH gets fair market value and line gets fair market value.

That would be difficult. While it is easier to separate the books internally what happens when the base settles and the line doesn't or vice versa? Does one group walk and the other stays? What about seniority? Can the members bump base to line if AA decides to shutdown the base? Sounds like it could be very messy.

 

[1AA]

Yeah! AMFA knows how to deal with issue of overhaul and line. Outsource overhaul. Problem solved. How many overhaul mechanic jobs has AMFA protected? Anyone? Bueller? That's right, none. 15,000 lost jobs over 8 years has got to be a new record.

The real question for Diamond Dave should be how many non-A&P jobs have they given up where AMFA represented the membership? Very few, in fact AMFA has tried in the. Past to get the NMB to create a new class and craft to get rid of those pesky unlicensed mechanics.

There you go again. I guess you did not go to the AMFA meeting in Miami.
You should have went and got the truth about AMFA but I guess it is more entertaining for you to blast off your lies and deceptive posts. Keep it up your doing a fine job of making a fool of yourself. Many of us educated ourselves over the months about AMFA and the IBT. We all know about the TWU. Soon we will all be AMFA and where will that leave you?

 

[TWU informer]

Yeah! AMFA knows how to deal with issue of overhaul and line. Outsource overhaul. Problem solved. How many overhaul mechanic jobs has AMFA protected? Anyone? Bueller? That's right, none. 15,000 lost jobs over 8 years has got to be a new record.

The real question for Diamond Dave should be how many non-A&P jobs have they given up where AMFA represented the membership? Very few, in fact AMFA has tried in the. Past to get the NMB to create a new class and craft to get rid of those pesky unlicensed mechanics.

Well let's look at the TWU facts.

In the last two years, 16 CFM-56 ESV outsourced, and then screwed the non-licensed worker on the greivance award for four of those engines, then Four 757 heavy Checks outsrouced, in Feb 2013 there will be Four 737 Heavy Checks outsourced, TWU just gave up without a fight a increase to 35% overhaul outsource while getting rid of the job security clause. And even allowed for an unlimited "peak demand" outsource provision. In addition the TWU has lost TWO (2) Overhaul Maintenance Bases.

And all you can do is claim AMFA gets rid of overhaul.

Really?

Check the dirt on your own front porch and get a broom. TWU overhaul headcount is dropping faster than the man who jumped from the capsule at the edge of space with only a parachute.

 

[1AA]

Actually AMFA at SWA added heavy lines. This I was told by a SWA AMT.
This is why they have been hiring AMT's in Texas. Actually they have been hiring AA AMT's. There is proof! Spin that one PHAT Don.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yeah! AMFA knows how to deal with issue of overhaul and line. Outsource overhaul. Problem solved. How many overhaul mechanic jobs has AMFA protected? Anyone? Bueller? That's right, none. 15,000 lost jobs over 8 years has got to be a new record.

The real question for Diamond Dave should be how many non-A&P jobs have they given up where AMFA represented the membership? Very few, in fact AMFA has tried in the. Past to get the NMB to create a new class and craft to get rid of those pesky unlicensed mechanics.

I've been asked about your claims by our members who have read them here and elsewhere and I dont have an answer. Please tell me; at which airlines did AMFA negotiate a contract where they decided to outsource overhaul and layoff guys so they could pay the line more? If claims are made we should be willing to add some details.

At NWA they went on strike to prevent that, the company wanted to layoff over 50%. Would you have endorsed such a deal here at AA as the one they struck against?

At UAL the IAM agreed to give up OH and outsource those jobs in Bankruptcy, however it was not to give the line more, they took paycuts, to try and catch up to us, we had already given paycuts outside of BK and had low paid OSMs doing a lot of the work they subsequently outsourced since 1995. AMFA came in after the fact. They eventually took a 13% paycut, kept their vacation, doubletime and Holidays, we gave up 17%, a week of vacation and not only half our Holidays by 2/3s of the rate we got for working them, wheras we would end up with the equivelent of 120 hours of pay per year if we worked the holidays before the concessions we now only get 20 hours extra pay for working those same days. At UAL they still get 100 hours. They also got substantial payments in BK to make up for the loss of their pension, plus equity and still have retiree medical for those who were there for years with contributions from the company. They never prefunded. Since then they also got a $75k early out, vs our $40k and get 1.75X for all hours on a feild trip while AA not only just gives us 1.5X but we only get that after 8 hours on the clock and they want to be able to take us off the clock to reste us to straight time while away. So all things being equal on an EC where you have to wait for the engine we could very well be away from home for 48 hours and not make any OT, just two 8 hour shifts plus the flight home (24 hrs total) at $34/hr while guys at UAL would get 48hours of 1.75 x at $38/hr. So for the same EC we wouldnt make any extra money, AA would only pay us $816 for our labor for an EC away from our base while UAL would pay their guys $3192. Me, I'd tell them to find somebody else to do it.

At SWA they never did OH in house, that pattern was established under the IBT. So they never sacrificed jobs at SWA for payraises there either.


.

So all we have left is Alaska, not sure what happened there, perhaps you can give us details so we can give answers. Please give us the examples of where AMFA, or any other union sacrificed Overhaul jobs to give Line mechanics payraises. What I have seen is where a union sacrificed wages and jobs rather than fight and that was us.

Amercan Eagle also contracts out most of their OH as well, they are the only other mechanics represented by the TWU. Eagle has around 300aircraft , more than double Alaska. The larger the fleet the more the economies of scale kick and make in house OH more attractive.

As the RIFs continue in the bases and the vacancies continue to appear on the line it seems that we wont be that far apart from our peers at other carriers as far as mechanics per airplane,we will be far apart as far as compensation for those mechanics. If we were to compare what UAL gets for $500 million in mechanics wages and compensation and what AA hets for $500 million we would see that AA getsthe labor of roughly 1800 mechanics for free, even more if you figure them in at starting OSM rates. Its likely that before 2013 they will be hiring off the street on the line. We didnt save OH, we pay them to keep it in house with no guarantee they will. Is that something to be proud of?

 

[Vortilon]

Yeah! AMFA knows how to deal with issue of overhaul and line. Outsource overhaul. Problem solved. How many overhaul mechanic jobs has AMFA protected? Anyone? Bueller? That's right, none. 15,000 lost jobs over 8 years has got to be a new record.

The real question for Diamond Dave should be how many non-A&P jobs have they given up where AMFA represented the membership? Very few, in fact AMFA has tried in the. Past to get the NMB to create a new class and craft to get rid of those pesky unlicensed mechanics.

Then, on the other hand - there is your logic. Let the base overload with unlicensed mechanics and support staff to dilute the licensed AMT ranks in an effort to maintain the roll call vote leverage. Thus relegating the licensed AMTs pay and benefits to the bottom of the industry, so you can say you saved overhaul jobs - that is communism.

 

[Bob Owens]

TWU just gave up without a fight a increase to 35% overhaul outsource while getting rid of the job security clause. And even allowed for an unlimited "peak demand" outsource provision. In addition the TWU has lost TWO (2) Overhaul Maintenance Bases.

Thats incorrect. There is no defined limit on overhaul outsourcing. There is a 15% limit on Line maintenance and a 35% conditional cap on total maintenance spend outsourced but no defined limit on overhaul beyond what falls under those limits . So if for aurgument sake the total line spend is 40% of the total maintenance spend, and the base is 60% and they can only outsourse 15% on the line, then the rest can come from OH.

Ok so lets use easy numbers. Lets say AAs total maint spend for the formula is $1 billion.
$600 million at the base and $400 million on the line.

They can outsourse $350 million
But they can only outsorce 15% of the $400 million they spend on the line, So they can outsource $60 million from the line.

They have $290 million left, all that can come from OH. 48% of OH.



Perhaps my assumptions are off, so lets say its 70% of total spend for OH and 30% for the line (which is likely because facilities are excluded, they probably pay more for Hangar 10 at JFK than they pay for the whole TULE base).

At 15% the most they can outsource on the line is $45 million, so they can outsource $305 million of OH. Thats 43% of OH spend but as OH shrinks it gets even worse because the company could choose to reduce Line maint outsourcing and outsource even more of OH, where the highest savings can be found. (They are likely to realize greater savings by outsoucing a heavy check overseas than an I check to TIMCO in MIA or BOS) You also need to remember we are talking about "spend" not heads. If they reduce total spend then they can reduce even more heads. A 35% total maint spend reduction could translate to a 75% reduction in OH jobs, or more.

I was told that Ream went around to the line telling them that a YES vote would allow the company to get rid of OH. Evie Rodriguez did as well. Yet the line voted 75% against the deal and Tulsa members were hoodwinked into voting YES to get rid of their own jobs. The line voted against a deal that lets the company get rid of OH and OH voted in favor. I'm not saying thats why they voted that way but thats how it worked out. Ironic isnt it?

 

[Bob Owens]

That would be difficult. While it is easier to separate the books internally what happens when the base settles and the line doesn't or vice versa? Does one group walk and the other stays? What about seniority? Can the members bump base to line if AA decides to shutdown the base? Sounds like it could be very messy.

Couldnt be any messier than what we have now, and what Don has proposed for the future.

 

[bigjets]

That would be difficult. While it is easier to separate the books internally what happens when the base settles and the line doesn't or vice versa? Does one group walk and the other stays? What about seniority? Can the members bump base to line if AA decides to shutdown the base? Sounds like it could be very messy.

Isn't that why we pay all that money to the TWU so they can represent us, not do what is easy. The TWU figured out a way to let the the FSC's with A&Ps just transfer to maint without any experience. It should not be too difficult to figure out, line has a contract OH doesn't, OH does what needs to, to get a contract and vise versa. If the FSC's get a contract and maint doesn't, what happens? It shouldn't be any different. Negotiate for fair market value, if OH wants to give up something to get weekends off, let them, but don't make the line mechs pay for that. If line wants to give up something for uniforms (I don't, it's like we're leasing polyester pants and shirts, I can't believe the old timers are proud to pay for uniforms), let them, but don't make OH pay for it.

I think the TWU is like the republican party, just going after 51% of the vote, which didn't work out for Romney and will be the ultimate demise of the TWU at AA. Continuing the divisive nature between line and OH is not the wave of the future. Having one president from one local who will represent for all mechanics not just OH or line is the way to go for the TWU at AA.

I actually prefer two contracts idea, what the TWU proposes is decades more TWU mechanic infighting.

 

[Bob Owens]

Isn't that why we pay all that money to the TWU so they can represent us, not do what is easy. The TWU figured out a way to let the the FSC's with A&Ps just transfer to maint without any experience. It should not be too difficult to figure out, line has a contract OH doesn't, OH does what needs to, to get a contract and vise versa. If the FSC's get a contract and maint doesn't, what happens? It shouldn't be any different. Negotiate for fair market value, if OH wants to give up something to get weekends off, let them, but don't make the line mechs pay for that. If line wants to give up something for uniforms (I don't, it's like we're leasing polyester pants and shirts, I can't believe the old timers are proud to pay for uniforms), let them, but don't make OH pay for it.

I think the TWU is like the republican party, just going after 51% of the vote, which didn't work out for Romney and will be the ultimate demise of the TWU at AA. Continuing the divisive nature between line and OH is not the wave of the future. Having one president from one local who will represent for all mechanics not just OH or line is the way to go for the TWU at AA.

I actually prefer two contracts idea, what the TWU proposes is decades more TWU mechanic infighting.

One local, with ownership of the contract like we see in Transit and at SWA would be a vast improvement over having appointed leaders like Don Videtich et al who enjoy their A-5 travel passes, give the company everything they want and then pass the blame on "the council". Despite all that I've seen over my 26 years the last 4 have been truly shocking. Delaying negotiations, while at the same time agreeing to anything the company wanted. Telling the NMB that "We want it announced that we are asking to be released but we really dont want to be released". The company asked us to support anti-trust immunity while at the same time jerking us around at the table (obviously it wasnt just the company), they made sure the council approved it. They convinced Fleet that they would get more jobs, never happened, instead carriers started bringing in their own fleet workers onto the the AA ramp and bagrooms (maint was sold out on that years ago) . Then, the company wanted to eliminate the experience requirement on the line, once again it was rushed through the council with the urging of Videtich and Gless. Videtich claimed that "We got language requiring that they train the guys (he didnt get that, the FAA did). And Gless claimed that "They really dont need our permission to do it", why vote on it then? Now Don et al come out with Local 591, which would add at least three more Presidents from Fleet service Locals to the negotiating committee and reduce the Line Maintenance presence to one. One Line maintenance President representing most but not all line aircraft maintenance, and nobody from Title II and up to13 Presidents from Fleet Service representing Title II mechanics and a Roll call holding 514 that has, Title 1 line and Title II and all of Title 1 overhaul. But "Its not political", and you can take that as a fact because he starts all his meetings with a prayer, thank you Jesus!!! Come on Tammy, shed some tears.

One local for all of M&R would be preferrable to Dons divide, isolate and marginalize scheme, but we would have to have the same control over our affairs as Local 556, 100 etc. That means that Don, Bobby et al go back to the floor and live under the deals they put in place. I guess they can keep the A-5s, after all, they were more than paid for.

Where did the "uniforms" thing come from?