Twu Lies

[Bob Owens]

LIE # 1.

"The members have the right to vote on contracts, its written in the Constitution."

Despite the language we do not have this right. The TWU argued in court, citing other cases where Unions were allowed to impose contracts without a vote, that the language guaranteeing our right to vote is open to interpretation by the International. The TWU testified that that language only applies to completely new contracts, not amended contracts. Since under the RLA contracts are only amendable under most conditions then as long as the members who were on payroll back in the 1940s got to vote on the first "completely new" contract, the TWU has satified that Constitutional right to "the members".


LIE #2

"You dont need to vote for the International Officers who represent the TWU to the company because the Presidents council has control over everything they do."

The fact is that the Presidents council has no Constitutional, enforcable decision making powers. Basically its a fascade, it exists to make the members, and many Presidents, feel that they really have some input. Over the years the International has gotten very good at ensuring that the council eventually comes to the conclusion that the International desires. However back in 1999 the International did not get its way. The International wanted seperate Locals. The Presidents could not be swayed, so Sonny imposed it on them. I'm told that ORD President Joy Calloway cursed out Sonny Hall. In retaliation Sonny Hall illegally interfered in the next election at ORD and may have had a hand in the termination of another ORD Local union official. They sued, and both reportedly walked away with out of court settlements.

Sonnys vindicive heavy handedness has cost Union members money. Depite losing lawsuits, being convicted of violating members rights and costly out of court settlements Sonny has not changed his ways. He is being sued for various transgressions against the former militant Local 501 board. Some of whom were terminated during an election in what appears to be a case of company-union collusion to rid Sonny Hall of rivals. Several of those victimized by this apparent conspiracy ran against Sonny Hall in the last Convention. I nominated one of thoose officers, Jack Sullivan to run against John Kerrigan who also had a part in my removal.

Faced with the examples of Joy Calloway, Local 234(where Sonny interfered with elections), the officers of Local 501, and the officers of Local 562, all vocal opponents of Sonny Hall, who were subsequently removed by Sonny Hall, any President who opposes Sonny does so at the risk of at the very least removal from office, a significant pay cut and possible termination from the company.

The fact is the Presidents have no power. According to the International, their oath dictates that all local officers must put the Internationals interests ahead of the members. This was clearly stated by the International in the document they sent to me describing their reasons for removing me from office.

LIE #3

"The Locals are autonomous."

While they may be "on their own" they most certainly are not self governing or independant of the laws of another. The laws of the local, in other words the bylaws are subject to the approval of the International. If you can not make your own rules, if another body determines what rules you can have, then you are not autonomous.

The Constitution of the TWU clearly gives the International total control over the Local Union. From approving its bylawsa and reviewing its finances to control over its charter. It even gives them the right to eliminate the entire Local. Clearly with such broad powers over them Local unions are not "autonomous". The International simply allows them enough of a leash so long as they dont do anything to annoy the International. Any Local that dares to annoy the International shall soon experience how short the International can make that leash.

Several of the previuos examples, Joy Calloway, Local 501 and Local 562 all reveal how "autonomous" the locals are. Once again, this brings us back to Sonny Halls interpretation of the Oath of office.An oath that according to the International pledges Loyalty to the International ahead of the members.

 

[Bob Owens]

Lie #4 from the TWU;

"The membership is the Ultimate authority"

This is a lie. The Constition is clear that the members are only the supreme authority of the local "at meetings", but then goes on to say that the Local E board-who by virtue of the Oath of office have been determined to be subordinate to the International- "shall have the power and authority to administer the affairs of the Local Union.

If you read the TWU Constitution it makes clear over and over again that the International is supreme over all Locals. Who is in charge of the International? Its not the members. Article VIII, Section 2 states "the International Executive Council shall be the supreme authority in the International Union (pg 16).

In fact when you read the TWU Constitution its very clear that the power of the Union is confined to the top levels of the union, none of which face electoral accountability from the members. While the Constition clearly designates what powers the International has it is silent as to what powers the members actually have other than at the Local level. As stated already the locals are subordinate to the International. Article XIII(pg 34) makes clear that the membership is subordinate to the International union. With the TWU we are paying to have a second boss. All you need to do is read the Article.

Sect 1 "Any person seeking membership shall be required,,,"

Sect 2 "An applicant shall not be accepted for membership until,,,"

Sect 3 "Any member who fails to pay his/her dues before the 15th day of each month shall be in bad standing."

Sect 4 "Any member in bad standing shall be inelligible to attend union meetings,,,"

Sect 5 "It shall be the duty of each member to pay,,,"

Sect 6-Grants the international power to extendtime limitations for the payment of fines.

Sect 7 "A member shall be required to advise the Local Financial secretary,,,,"

The remaining sections cover transfers, layoffs etc, none of them grant the membership rights to have input into the affairs or direction of the TWU.

It is clear from this article, in fact from the whole document that the membership has duties and obligations to the TWU but the TWU has no duties or obligations to the members.

In direct contrast to Article XIII, which states what the members shall do for the TWU, Articles V through X apply specific and broad powers to the International.After reading the Constitution it is clear that the TWU is not a membership run organization. The Constitution only applies duties and responsibilities upon the members to finance and support the organization but does not grant them any rights to 'participate" in determining the direction of the organization.


So while the Constitution is clear, when taken as a whole, that the membership is not in control, proponents of the TWU, obviously with the hope that no one will actually research the facts behind the statement, claim over and over again that the "membership is the ultimate authority". As long as people actually believe this, its easy for the next TWU lie that "its all the memberships fault" to be believed.

 

[Checking it Out]

One persons opinion. Since you are obvious so unhappy with belonging, what are you going to do?

To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving! Anyone involved in the process knows the members have the ultimate power!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

One persons opinion. Since you are obvious so unhappy with belonging, what are you going to do?

To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving!

Opinion?

Ok, I gave you plenty of FACTS to support that opinion, facts right out of the TWU Constitution.


"Anyone involved in the process knows the members have the ultimate power!!!"


What facts do you have to supprt that statement? If you cant present such facts then its simply another Lie. Show me where in the TWU Constitution that the members have the ultimate power to determine anything with the TWU?

 

[Checking it Out]

The members have the right to make motions from the floor. If we so choose and is passed by the majority who vote than they are obligated to bring those motions forward to the presidents council. In turn if those elected officials approve by majority vote than it goes forward to the International. etc. The system works! The problem is the minority thinks it should always go their way!!!!

Bob, four Question:

Did you vote on the presidents position with the International?

Does the members vote on the Convention Delegates?

Does the members have the ability to vote on the international officers prior to the convention without changing the constitution?

Does the members have the ability to direct the convention delegates how they should vote prior to the convention?

 

[Buck]

One persons opinion. Since you are obvious so unhappy with belonging, what are you going to do?

To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving! Anyone involved in the process knows the members have no power!!!

And I say the same thing about you, with a minor change.

 

[Checking it Out]

Buck I thought you were above altering statements! I guess I was wrong!!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

cio:
"To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving! Anyone involved in the process knows the members have the ultimate power!!!"

Your quote regarding members of the twu reconfirms your status as an ignorant drone.

Why can you not comprehend that the twu is a socialistic, industrial union? Why is the twu NOW saying we need to pull together and get back what was lost (stolen)?

Why are not all twu international officer positions voted/elected on by the full membership?

 

[j7915]

cio:
"To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving! Anyone involved in the process knows the members have the ultimate power!!!"

Your quote regarding members of the twu reconfirms your status as an ignorant drone.

Why can you not comprehend that the twu is a socialistic, industrial union? Why is the twu NOW saying we need to pull together and get back what was lost (stolen)?

Why are not all twu international officer positions voted/elected on by the full membership?

Ken your ranting about the evil socialist TWU/AFL-CIO etc, is getting old. Just who do you think started the unions? It sure was not the capitalist employers, they only employed Pinkerton and other rent-a-cops when they couldn't convince the National Guard to beat up on workers. Go read that leftist Howard Zinn, unfortunately for your position he does give references to back up his arguments. As opposed to the right wing that seems to worry way too much about killing the messenger.

If you don't want to help others fine, then go cut your deals, heaven knows there is enough of that already, but stop with the unfounded accusations that because in the 1920s and 30s is was the left wing that was more willing then others to go and demonstrate and fight the conservatives. So therefore we should not stick the course of mutual help.

Maybe now that the immediate short term threat of BK is over we can re-evaluate things? Do you think the last president of the pilot's union was a company stooge and fool also? In his statement he acknowledged that AA was on the verge of going to court. Of course Delle thinks the judge would have left the TWU alone once the situation had been cleared up, or maybe you just don't care about several thousand members who work overhaul?

I hope never to be in a lifeboat with you.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Ken your ranting about the evil socialist TWU/AFL-CIO etc, is getting old. Just who do you think started the unions? It sure was not the capitalist employers, they only employed Pinkerton and other rent-a-cops when they couldn't convince the National Guard to beat up on workers. Go read that leftist Howard Zinn, unfortunately for your position he does give references to back up his arguments. As opposed to the right wing that seems to worry way too much about killing the messenger.

If you don't want to help others fine, then go cut your deals, heaven knows there is enough of that already, but stop with the unfounded accusations that because in the 1920s and 30s is was the left wing that was more willing then others to go and demonstrate and fight the conservatives. So therefore we should not stick the course of mutual help.

Maybe now that the immediate short term threat of BK is over we can re-evaluate things? Do you think the last president of the pilot's union was a company stooge and fool also? In his statement he acknowledged that AA was on the verge of going to court. Of course Delle thinks the judge would have left the TWU alone once the situation had been cleared up, or maybe you just don't care about several thousand members who work overhaul?

I hope never to be in a lifeboat with you.

Getting tired of the truth are you j? Unions were needed and are still needed. I never said they were not. What I have said is that the twu is NOT the union to represent/protect our profession. The afl-cio is needed but it does NOT help our profession.

I do want to help others. I want to help other's in my craft & class. I do not see how having the casino dealer or taxi driver can help/protect our profession. Bob Owens suggested that the afl-cio unions that represented AMTs should all be consolidated under one union that remained in the afl-cio. Why was this not accepted? It makes sense doesn't it? What effects one AMT at one airline will effect another AMT at another airline. The afl-cio had their chance and lost it.

I wish casino dealers and taxi drivers the best. As I do for all unionized workers. But I am a highly skilled, professional AMT and will fight for our profession. Let the "Ken MacTiernans and j7915s" of dealers, drivers and plumbers and electricians fight for their craft & class. Mutual help is honoring picket lines.

And I do care about the thousands of overhaul members. I have flown out to informational meetings and stated as such. And I did not use an alias.

As for being in the same lifeboat together do not fear. With the twu at the helm of the ship I'm sure that they would have a lifeboat just for twu supporting, alias posting cowards. I'm sure that they would make room for you.

 

[Decision 2004]

One persons opinion. Since you are obvious so unhappy with belonging, what are you going to do?

To the rest of us, it's just ranting and raving! Anyone involved in the process knows the members have the ultimate power!!!

How can you say such a thing after the TWU succeeded in Federal Court and obtained a Judges ruling that the TWU does NOT have a Constitutional Requirement to allow membership ratification of amendments or changes to the Labor Agreement?

The Ulitmate Power within the TWU is in the hands of the International Administrative Committee.

I guess the truth always has been and always will be "ranting and raving" in your mind, but then again, we know too well of your intellegence level and your mechanical abilities.

Kevin, I am convinced that debating with you is a complete waste of time, we have shown the truth through documentation taht the TWU argued and won, in Federal Court to protect the Int'l Supreme Authority, and you still make comments like this.

Of course, you will never change my mind either, so let's vote and see what the MAJORITY wishes via a National Mediation Board Ballot. That is the only way any sense of unity will ever be restored. Only then will the MEMBERS demostrate their ULTIMATE POWER. Of course you appear to fear allowing such an exhibition of power by the membership, all the while you claim we have such power.

 

[Nightwatch]

Of course, you will never change my mind either, so let's vote and see what the MAJORITY wishes via a National Mediation Board Ballot. That is the only way any sense of unity will ever be restored. Only then will the MEMBERS demonstrate their ULTIMATE POWER. Of course you appear to fear allowing such an exhibition of power by the membership, all the while you claim we have such power.

Recognizing the ability to agree to disagree is one step. Stating you want to see what the majority wants through an election is a process that has to be earned, to date you have not reached that level. And trust me here, a "sense of unity" will not be felt, not by you, and not by me. Members demonstrate their ultimate power, man, put down the Mountain Dew. The majority of members do not demonstrate a thing, period. They go through their employment with the airlines with the greatest of ease until adversity sets in, for whatever reason. Then they look for someone to lay blame to, couldn't be them, they haven't done anything. So it has to be the union, never the company.

I've been reading boards for over a year and read the same BS at every one. TWU members upset with the TWU...AMFA members upset with Delle, can't blame them there.

You act like "just let us vote" and all will be well...you're a common fool, nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

[Bob Owens]

The members have the right to make motions from the floor.

In other words they have the right to "ask".

If we so choose and is passed by the majority who vote than they are obligated to bring those motions forward to the presidents council.

Who is "we"? The E-board, a body that is subordinate to the International? Where is the Presidents council mentioned in the Constitution and what powers does it have? If a motion is passed from the floor that affects the International there is nothing compelling the International to act on it. Show me where in the Constitution it says that members have the power to do anything at the International level.

In turn if those elected officials approve by majority vote than it goes forward to the International. etc. The system works! The problem is the minority thinks it should always go their way!!!!

It works for the International, not for the members. All you have to do is look at the graph of mechanics pay vs CPI.

By your own statement you admit that posession of the motion goes from the elected to those unelected by the members. You admit that even the elected officials, who are subordinate to the unelected International do not have to act upon the will of the members. The Presidents council-a body that has no Constitutional powers anyway- can reject any motion made by the members by secret vote and thats the end of it.

Bob, four Question:

Even though you rarely answer questions I'll address yours.

Did you vote on the presidents position with the International?

I was a delegate. I voted, however the membership is not given access to any records, since there arent any, of how each delegate voted. This is a question of accountability and transparancy. Without such records the membership is in the dark. Proponents for change are kept in the dark as to where to focus their message for change. Most of the votes were done by voice, 300 or more people yelling Aye or Nay in turn. Some votes appeared to have gone the opposite way of the way the chair wanted but were ruled in the chairs favor anyway. When questioned Sonny pretty much said that he gets to determine the vote. While the officer elections were done by division of the house, better, but still not offering members true and full accountability, it could hardly be said that the Convention was an example of good Democracy. It could hardly be said that the members had any real direct input into the process and they certainly do not have any recourse.


Does the members vote on the Convention Delegates?

Does? Another example of TWU language skills?

Voting on candidates is fine, but where is the accountability?

Does the members have the ability to vote on the international officers prior to the convention without changing the constitution?

Does? If I understand your broken English correctly the answer is No. The members do not have the ability to vote on International officers.

Does the members have the ability to direct the convention delegates how they should vote prior to the convention?

Does?

Do they? Show me where the members have this power. Other than voting them out what recourse do the members have? Where is the record of how individual delegates voted? It does not exist so your whole point is moot.

 

[Hopeful]

Recognizing the ability to agree to disagree is one step. Stating you want to see what the majority wants through an election is a process that has to be earned, to date you have not reached that level. And trust me here, a "sense of unity" will not be felt, not by you, and not by me. Members demonstrate their ultimate power, man, put down the Mountain Dew. The majority of members do not demonstrate a thing, period. They go through their employment with the airlines with the greatest of ease until adversity sets in, for whatever reason. Then they look for someone to lay blame to, couldn't be them, they haven't done anything. So it has to be the union, never the company.

I've been reading boards for over a year and read the same BS at every one. TWU members upset with the TWU...AMFA members upset with Delle, can't blame them there.

You act like "just let us vote" and all will be well...you're a common fool, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Nightwatch: Very interesting! In your comment you say ytou can't blame AMFA members for being unhappy with Delle! But you say that TWU members are upset with the TWU?

Don't you think that TWU members are unhappy with LITTLE? and his assisiting in the rape of TWU members at the bequest of management?

 

[Bob Owens]

Just who do you think started the unions? It sure was not the capitalist employers, they only employed Pinkerton and other rent-a-cops when they couldn't convince the National Guard to beat up on workers.

But unfortunatly Unions like the TWU now have more in common with the capitalist employers who hired Pinkerton guards etc. The TWU has been bringing wages and benifits down for 20 years while at the same time encouraging greater cooperation with the company through things like the Overland group. Do you think that the leaders who helped form the unions would ever go and hire a private non-union company to go out and find out what the members want? Basically the TWU is doing the same thing that corporations do to keep unions out. You admitted that the TWU is structured like a corporation. If you truly are Union minded when will you stand back and take a good look at the people who are running this organization and see them for what they really are?

Go read that leftist Howard Zinn, unfortunately for your position he does give references to back up his arguments.

A Peoples History of the United States, read it. Great book. I have one for you, "From the Ashes of the Old" by Stanley Aronowitz, ISBN 0-395-88132-3.

If you don't want to help others fine, then go cut your deals, heaven knows there is enough of that already, but stop with the unfounded accusations that because in the 1920s and 30s is was the left wing that was more willing then others to go and demonstrate and fight the conservatives. So therefore we should not stick the course of mutual help.

And tell us how have you and 514 "helped" us? The concessions were crafted to have a greater impact on the line, who could afford them the least. No doubt that Little and the ATD had this in mind because they know that the line supports AMFA.

Maybe now that the immediate short term threat of BK is over we can re-evaluate things? Do you think the last president of the pilot's union was a company stooge and fool also? In his statement he acknowledged that AA was on the verge of going to court. Of course Delle thinks the judge would have left the TWU alone once the situation had been cleared up, or maybe you just don't care about several thousand members who work overhaul?

I still do not know what makes you think that we would have lost overhaul. Just because the company threatened it? Are you saying that the company never misleaded us before? Were you here in 95? "Me Too clause". What about last year with the hidden executive bonuses? Did any other airline out there have the low cost OSMs that the TWU gave AA? UALS costs after outsourcing went up, not down. And if all of a sudden AA jumped into the outsourcing market what do you think would happen to the price? Demand drives the price up, not down.

I hope never to be in a lifeboat with you.

You Tulsa TWU 514 boys would never let us in anyway, you would throw us a rope and tell us to swim for shore and pull you along.