Farming Out The Line

[Buck]

 Southwest has more AMTs on their 737 B check than us. Why? 
Because they do what we call C check work on the line phased in.

So Southwest does do "C" checks.

So why has the TWU consistantly stated that Southwest does not?

When the AMFA drive(s) where happening, thats all you heard from the TWU.

I sure would like to have a contract that came close to what Southwest is making.

Maybe a contract that is settled before the amendable date. Like Alaska at 7.1% DOS.

If Tulsa is so far behind and inefficient, then maybe the line could do some of our "C" checks.

 

[strikeforce]

If it were only that simple.

You have to feed your kid when he is not mowing your lawn right? House and clothe him too. You had to buy the lawn mower as well and gas? Store the equipment. So you are paying all that overhead to mow one lawn. The other guy mows five lawns a day with one lawn mower. I'd get my kid to mow some other lawns and utilize my asset to generate more revenue to offset his costs or tell him to get a job and outsource the lawn care.

Bob, when you can figure out a contract that gets all of us paid more and provides a cost neutral or positive effect to AA you will have a contract for us.

FYI - headcount per acft isn't everything and does not take in to consideration the work being done. Southwest has more AMTs on their 737 B check than us. Why? Because they do what we call C check work on the line phased in. Is that what Virgin is doing? If you are talking about Virgin America they don't have their own mechanics. Lufthansa Technik provides the management and other third party companies provide the labor. That's called outsourcing line maintenance which is what Buck is talking about. When those mechanics working on Virgin are done, they work on someone else's airplane. Kind of like the landscape guy.

Anything can be outsourced. The point is to separate TWU labor by the quality and productivity we provide. Right now AA has more out of service aircraft each day (acft sitting not generating revenue), more maintenance delays, and more maintenance cancels. Get those numbers to the top and that is the value insourced labor provides. Run at the bottom, and you are a liability.

It's not Bob's fault AA has a bunch of slugs. Why doesn't the TWU weed out the slugs? Gee, how many times does a 767 tire have to fall off before someone gets fired?? It's up to the union leadership to set a standard and expectations for it's workers. Why doesn't the leadership come around and tell people what's expected? The TWU INTL leadership lacks integrity and professionalism, and that's exactly what you get from the people. Remember, the union is only as good as the people, and right now the people can give a hoot about fixing airplanes, and fighting for the contract. When the TWU INTL fixes that, will be the day WE can go around and call ourselves professionals, and compete against real professionals like Lufthansa technik. I'm sure at Lufthansa Technik they don't tolerate the non-sense!

 

[furp]

 Southwest has more AMTs on their 737 B check than us. Why? 
Because they do what we call C check work on the line phased in.

So Southwest does do "C" checks.

So why has the TWU consistantly stated that Southwest does not?

When the AMFA drive(s) where happening, thats all you heard from the TWU.

I sure would like to have a contract that came close to what Southwest is making.

Maybe a contract that is settled before the amendable date. Like Alaska at 7.1% DOS.

If Tulsa is so far behind and inefficient, then maybe the line could do some of our "C" checks.

GOOD THING WE CAN'T SMOKE DOPE ANYMORE!!! I WOULD HATE TO SEE THE ASSININE #### YOU COULD COME UP WITH THEN!!
AND GUESS WAHT BUCKSTER?? DWH WOULD BE HAPPY TO DO YOUR "C" CHECKS THAT YOU CAN NOT HANDLE DUE TO YOUR DEMANDS OF WEEKENDS OFF!!!
SPIN OFF OVERHUAL AND GIVE THEM TIMCO WAGES WITH LIFETIME D4 PASSES!! BRING THE LINE UP TO UPS WAGES AS THEY DESERVE AND EVERYTHING WILL FLY ON TIME AND SAFELY!!!

 

[Buck]

GOOD THING WE CAN'T SMOKE DOPE ANYMORE!!! I WOULD HATE TO SEE THE ASSININE #### YOU COULD COME UP WITH THEN!!
AND GUESS WAHT BUCKSTER?? DWH WOULD BE HAPPY TO DO YOUR "C" CHECKS THAT YOU CAN NOT HANDLE DUE TO YOUR DEMANDS OF WEEKENDS OFF!!!
SPIN OFF OVERHUAL AND GIVE THEM TIMCO WAGES WITH LIFETIME D4 PASSES!! BRING THE LINE UP TO UPS WAGES AS THEY DESERVE AND EVERYTHING WILL FLY ON TIME AND SAFELY!!!

Some are smoking dope.....

What is wrong with asking what I have? You just as much right as I do to post and read here. Would you want that taken form you?

I hope you are not crying because you do not think you were treated fair by the company and the TWU upon the intergration of TWA? I would be happy to have DWH pick up some of the 757 work that is being farmed out. Your assumption that all of TUL has the weekend off is crazy. I work six days a week by choice, mostly twelve hour nights. Again it is not just the aircraft overhaul that is whining about having the weekends off. Is DWH forced to work weekends? As for the "C" checks that we cannot handle, we have met schedule ever since we started these checks.

As for Line Premium, I say go ahead and give it to them. I would say that they need to give them line pay and GEO pay all in one. Get it by the TWU.

So spin off the Line Maintenance or Overhaul? Maybe, but do not forget the company started DWH and they can shut it down.

 

[Overspeed]

So whose fault is it? Are you understaffed on the line? Being denied parts? Tooling?

Why can't the line guys keep the wheels on the bus?

To lay the blame on any one thing is ridiculous. It's everybody's fault. No one wins with all this finger pointing BS.

We need a troubleshooter, one who can weed through all the political crap the impairs the ability of management and union leadership to do the right things and make the tough choices. In the end we all lose.

In a nutshell. We are stuck in the prisoner's dilemma. (For those who don't know what that is)

"Two men are arrested, but the police do not possess enough information for a conviction. Following the separation of the two men, the police offer both a similar deal- if one testifies against his partner (defects), and the other stays quiet (cooperates), the betrayer goes free and the cooperator receives the full one-year sentence. If both remain silent, both are sentenced to only one month in jail for a minor charge. If each 'rats out' the other, each receives a three-month sentence. Each prisoner must choose to either betray or remain silent; the decision of each is kept quiet. What should they do?"

 

[Overspeed]

Some are smoking dope.....

What is wrong with asking what I have? You just as much right as I do to post and read here. Would you want that taken form you?

I hope you are not crying because you do not think you were treated fair by the company and the TWU upon the intergration of TWA? I would be happy to have DWH pick up some of the 757 work that is being farmed out. Your assumption that all of TUL has the weekend off is crazy. I work six days a week by choice, mostly twelve hour nights. Again it is not just the aircraft overhaul that is whining about having the weekends off. Is DWH forced to work weekends? As for the "C" checks that we cannot handle, we have met schedule ever since we started these checks.

As for Line Premium, I say go ahead and give it to them. I would say that they need to give them line pay and GEO pay all in one. Get it by the TWU.

So spin off the Line Maintenance or Overhaul? Maybe, but do not forget the company started DWH and they can shut it down.

Southwest does do light C work in the Line. That would be a way to get a more people higher pay but some base people would have to come out to the line. Give what the new 787 program looks like with the C's pushed out to twelve years that may come on its own.

There are plenty of compromises to be made that can get all of us top pay. People like Bob and FURP only want to throw stones. Your questions are valid and should be discussed by the negotiators. They are just too dug in to listen to other possibilities.

 

[strikeforce]

Southwest does do light C work in the Line. That would be a way to get a more people higher pay but some base people would have to come out to the line. Give what the new 787 program looks like with the C's pushed out to twelve years that may come on its own.

There are plenty of compromises to be made that can get all of us top pay. People like Bob and FURP only want to throw stones. Your questions are valid and should be discussed by the negotiators. They are just too dug in to listen to other possibilities.

Look, at some point in time the union, as a whole, is going to have to ask themselves, "do WE keep all these jobs at meager wages and benefits or do WE let some jobs go in order to get the maximum wages and benefits out there???"

The hand writing is on the wall.....and, WE should strive to get the maximum. With attrition, the members returning to this crazy business will at least make the maximum.

 

[odie01]

Look, at some point in time the union, as a whole, is going to have to ask themselves, "do WE keep all these jobs at meager wages and benefits or do WE let some jobs go in order to get the maximum wages and benefits out there???"

The hand writing is on the wall.....and, WE should strive to get the maximum. With attrition, the members returning to this crazy business will at least make the maximum.

I think they would keep all these jobs at meager wages. More members=more dues. The twu does nothing for our profession

 

[Overspeed]

I think they would keep all these jobs at meager wages. More members=more dues. The twu does nothing for our profession

Wrong. Since the TWU Constitution states the dues rate is 2X your hourly rate, if you get paid more the TWU gets more money. That is as long as the raise is large enough to offset the amount members lost at the lower pay rate. Plus, the Int'l gets a raise if they get a raise for their members.

So like I said, you are an IGM'er through and through. You are willing to sell out someone else's job to benefit your paycheck. Nice, great union guy you are or is this the brand of unionism you advocate?

 

[FWAAA]

To lay the blame on any one thing is ridiculous. It's everybody's fault. No one wins with all this finger pointing BS.

We need a troubleshooter, one who can weed through all the political crap the impairs the ability of management and union leadership to do the right things and make the tough choices. In the end we all lose.

With professional advisors and negotiators, you might get that. Hired guns aren't perpetually angry with management and don't suffer from industry-lagging poor morale and aren't hung up on all the injustices done to them by management for the past 40 years. They don't argue that the financial statements are only one set of the dual sets of books. Instead, they are paid to devise solutions to your real problem: your pay is lower than you would like.

What you have instead are well-meaning but ignorant mechanics play-acting at negotiations, and it shows. What do you have to show for it? Decades of sub-par results, with only the 2001 contract as the favorable exception.

Time to fire the worthless union and replace it with professionals. Not guys who know how to turn wrenches and fix airplanes - guys who know how to negotiate higher wages and benefits. Winning means knowing when to outsource and when to insource.

 

[strikeforce]

Wrong. Since the TWU Constitution states the dues rate is 2X your hourly rate, if you get paid more the TWU gets more money. That is as long as the raise is large enough to offset the amount members lost at the lower pay rate. Plus, the Int'l gets a raise if they get a raise for their members.

So like I said, you are an IGM'er through and through. You are willing to sell out someone else's job to benefit your paycheck. Nice, great union guy you are or is this the brand of unionism you advocate?

You're wrong Overspeed! It's not the IGM mentality, it's reality. AMFA mechanics at WN enjoy much higher wages and benefits in exchange to outsource some jobs. The problem with our union is this protectionist views about saving jobs in exchange for more givebacks and it's not helping anyone financially. I certainy can't control what business decisions AA makes regarding maint., but there are higher wages out there and I think it's in the aircraft mechanics best interest to get those wages before they disappear or WE disappear!

 

[Overspeed]

With professional advisors and negotiators, you might get that. Hired guns aren't perpetually angry with management and don't suffer from industry-lagging poor morale and aren't hung up on all the injustices done to them by management for the past 40 years. They don't argue that the financial statements are only one set of the dual sets of books. Instead, they are paid to devise solutions to your real problem: your pay is lower than you would like.

What you have instead are well-meaning but ignorant mechanics play-acting at negotiations, and it shows. What do you have to show for it? Decades of sub-par results, with only the 2001 contract as the favorable exception.

Time to fire the worthless union and replace it with professionals. Not guys who know how to turn wrenches and fix airplanes - guys who know how to negotiate higher wages and benefits. Winning means knowing when to outsource and when to insource.

I agree with everything but replacing the union. I think we can achieve most of the goals you have stated by having a core team of people that know and understand the maintenance business and work for us. There has to be some way to do that and push aside the politics that are inherent in any union. The current structure is selected by a popularity contest and is not based on what is realistically achievable.

The group now filters and spins things to back up their campaign promises. Now we just have to wait and watch the circus the current cast of clowns.

 

[Buck]

Look, at some point in time the union, as a whole, is going to have to ask themselves, "do WE keep all these jobs at meager wages and benefits or do WE let some jobs go in order to get the maximum wages and benefits out there???"

The hand writing is on the wall.....and, WE should strive to get the maximum. With attrition, the members returning to this crazy business will at least make the maximum.

Let some go? Why would you do that when the TWU could get us a new "B" Scale? Screw the guys coming in. I got mine brother.

Maybe we could get wages and benefits based on seniority? The longer you are at AA the more you make. Maybe top out should be at 25 years? Maybe someone is smoking dope.....

The only handwriting on the wall is that the division between the Line and OH is growing and since the members are not doing thing to stop it, we should pay someone to represents that can.

 

[Bob Owens]

There are plenty of compromises to be made that can get all of us top pay. People like Bob and FURP only want to throw stones. Your questions are valid and should be discussed by the negotiators. They are just too dug in to listen to other possibilities.

The company is the one thats dug in and I'm all ears.

We offered several compromises but the company keeps moving further away. Thats why I feel that moving at this time is pointless and we should save it till we are released and real negotiations start. Hopefully we will not have to resort to self help and we get a deal that does what it needs to do for us so we can do what AA needs us to do for them. For three years we have only heard about what the company needs and not what the members need.

 

[strikeforce]

Let some go? Why would you do that when the TWU could get us a new "B" Scale? Screw the guys coming in. I got mine brother.

Maybe we could get wages and benefits based on seniority? The longer you are at AA the more you make. Maybe top out should be at 25 years? Maybe someone is smoking dope.....

The only handwriting on the wall is that the division between the Line and OH is growing and since the members are not doing thing to stop it, we should pay someone to represents that can.

This division is being fueled by views from TWU Informer, Observer, Overspeed, that's it's ok to screw the rest of the dues paying members as long as TUL gets there's, and as long as TUL decides everyone's wages and benefits. Wrong!!!

Give the LINE some flexibility and We'll all get along!!!


Hey, I threw out some solutions.....like abolishing the roll call vote and giving LINE seperate negotiations and a seperate contract. If TUL is so valueable to AA's operation YOU should be able to hold stand alone negotiations and get whatever rates you want. But, it's pretty obvious that everyone needs the LINE in order to have a little bit of protection because the LINE is battling everyone's war....I certainly haven't seen TUL fight AA in my 21 years. It's always been the LINE and the next war will happen on the LINE!

Maybe the good ole boys should put on their pants and take off the skirts!