Farming Out The Line

[Bob Owens]

With professional advisors and negotiators, you might get that. Hired guns aren't perpetually angry with management and don't suffer from industry-lagging poor morale and aren't hung up on all the injustices done to them by management for the past 40 years. They don't argue that the financial statements are only one set of the dual sets of books. Instead, they are paid to devise solutions to your real problem: your pay is lower than you would like.

What you have instead are well-meaning but ignorant mechanics play-acting at negotiations, and it shows. What do you have to show for it? Decades of sub-par results, with only the 2001 contract as the favorable exception.

Time to fire the worthless union and replace it with professionals. Not guys who know how to turn wrenches and fix airplanes - guys who know how to negotiate higher wages and benefits. Winning means knowing when to outsource and when to insource.

It's said that the APA has profesional negotiators and I believe they opened their talks before we did yet they still dont have a contract yet do they?

I have no problem with the concept of hiring professionals but then again who does the hiring? An Economist was hired but I''m not too impressed with his abilities. He was nearly $250 million off on his cost out, in favor of the company. On the company side several of their guys are former union officials, no professional negotiators there either. But I would want someone from our side in there either way.

 

[Buck]

You're wrong Overspeed! It's not the IGM mentality, it's reality. AMFA mechanics at WN enjoy much higher wages and benefits in exchange to outsource some jobs. The problem with our union is this protectionist views about saving jobs in exchange for more givebacks and it's not helping anyone financially. I certainy can't control what business decisions AA makes regarding maint., but there are higher wages out there and I think it's in the aircraft mechanics best interest to get those wages before they disappear or WE disappear!

Why is it when AMFA is brought into the picture that maintenance jobs are outsourced? IF they do accomplish their "C" checks and they have the highest wages, what is the difference?

Maybe the discussion should also bring in the fact that AMFA does not represent Fleet Service.

I beleive that I will start promoting the outsourcing of the Line Maintnance group.

And for those that keep asking why it is hard to get cards signed at TUL, it is fear.

 

[Overspeed]

You're wrong Overspeed! It's not the IGM mentality, it's reality. AMFA mechanics at WN enjoy much higher wages and benefits in exchange to outsource some jobs. The problem with our union is this protectionist views about saving jobs in exchange for more givebacks and it's not helping anyone financially. I certainy can't control what business decisions AA makes regarding maint., but there are higher wages out there and I think it's in the aircraft mechanics best interest to get those wages before they disappear or WE disappear!

How am I wrong? Southwest never had those jobs inhouse. You are taking about outsourcing in areas and magnitude that has never been in place at AA.

You are talking about outsourcing more jobs to line your pockets. Another IGM'er exposed. How about this, let's outsource half of overhaul and half of line maintenance? Close most of the class IIs. That way everybody shares in the pain in the union only have to layoff 4 or 5 thousand. Then all that are left can have $50/hour! The Int'l gets a raise and we have top wages! Will that make you happy? I paraphrased a famous poem for you to think about.

First they came for the New Hires, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a New Hire.

Then they came for Airframe Overhaul, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not in Airframe Overhaul.

Then they came for Engine Overhaul, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not in Engine Overhaul.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[Buck]

This division is being fueled by views from TWU Informer, Observer, Overspeed, that's it's ok to screw the rest of the dues paying members as long as TUL gets there's, and as long as TUL decides everyone's wages and benefits. Wrong!!!

Give the LINE some flexibility and We'll all get along!!!

You and I are as guility as those that you mentioned. What are you doing to physically to further your position? What are you deferring to maintenance in TUL?

 

[Overspeed]

Why is it when AMFA is brought into the picture that maintenance jobs are outsourced? IF they do accomplish their "C" checks and they have the highest wages, what is the difference?

Maybe the discussion should also bring in the fact that AMFA does not represent Fleet Service.

I beleive that I will start promoting the outsourcing of the Line Maintnance group.

And for those that keep asking why it is hard to get cards signed at TUL, it is fear.

Oh man! Did you just turn the tables?!?!

 

[Buck]

It's said that the APA has profesional negotiators and I believe they opened their talks before we did yet they still dont have a contract yet do they?

I have no problem with the concept of hiring professionals but then again who does the hiring? An Economist was hired but I''m not too impressed with his abilities. He was nearly $250 million off on his cost out, in favor of the company. On the company side several of their guys are former union officials, no professional negotiators there either. But I would want someone from our side in there either way.

What's funny is that the union representing the mechanics at Alaska got number two in the industry a couple of days ago and before their contract amendable date.

 

[Bob Owens]

What's funny is that the union representing the mechanics at Alaska got number two in the industry a couple of days ago and before their contract amendable date.

What did they get?
Did they have "professional Negotiators"?

 

[FWAAA]

What's funny is that the union representing the mechanics at Alaska got number two in the industry a couple of days ago and before their contract amendable date.

That would be the airline that outsourced its heavy overhaul a few years ago and laid off hundreds of employees, right?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002032672_alaska11.html

AMFA and IBT both have proven that they can successfully negotiate high pay for aircraft mechanics. Just not very many aircraft mechanics who perform heavy airframe overhaul.

 

[Buck]

What did they get?
Did they have "professional Negotiators"?

Guess Who?

Alaska Airlines

What did they get?


Saturday, October 1, 2011
Tentative Agreement Reached (9/29/11)
Following is the email announcement from Tim Cullen on 9/29/2011 in it's entirety-


"All,

I’m pleased to announce that we have reached a tentative agreement worthy of your consideration. There will be an official update out shortly, but I wanted to give everyone a quick overview.

5 year contract

Job protection for all covered employees for the duration of the agreement

7.1% pay increase at DOS bring us to #2 in the industry

1.5% pay increases in down line years with an internal and external pay review

8% medical premium caps

Wellness program LOA

Enhanced merger protection language

Vacation buyback program

Charter, irregular ops, and TDY language

$1500.00 Signing bonus

 

[Buck]

That would be the airline that outsourced its heavy overhaul a few years ago and laid off hundreds of employees, right?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002032672_alaska11.html

AMFA and IBT both have proven that they can successfully negotiate high pay for aircraft mechanics. Just not very many aircraft mechanics who perform heavy airframe overhaul.

So poke them in the eye with a sharp stick............

7.0% DOS

FWAAA: you posted an article from 2004?

I posted from aanegotiations.com

 

[FWAAA]

FWAAA: you posted an article from 2004?

I posted from aanegotiations.com

Yes, I did. My post mentioned historical fact and I posted an article confirming the facts. The article detailed the job cuts at AS when it outsourced its overhaul and the bluster from Delle-Femine that AMFA would fight the job cuts.

Of all the unions representing aircraft mechanics, IBT (negotiated large raises at WN before they were fired and raises at UPS) and AMFA (large raises at NW and elsewhere) are the two unions with proven favorable results. When it comes to pay raises, that is.

 

[Buck]

Yes, I did. My post mentioned historical fact and I posted an article confirming the facts. The article detailed the job cuts at AS when it outsourced its overhaul and the bluster from Delle-Femine that AMFA would fight the job cuts.

Of all the unions representing aircraft mechanics, IBT (negotiated large raises at WN before they were fired and raises at UPS) and AMFA (large raises at NW and elsewhere) are the two unions with proven favorable results. When it comes to pay raises, that is.

Ok thanks for the information.

 

[eolesen]

It's said that the APA has profesional negotiators and I believe they opened their talks before we did yet they still dont have a contract yet do they?

APA brought them in late last year, after Hill was ousted from office and Bates took over. And they've allegedly made a lot more progress on a contract in that year than they did with Lloyd at the helm.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/11/alpa-unit-to-help-americans-pi.html

I have no problem with the concept of hiring professionals but then again who does the hiring? An Economist was hired but I''m not too impressed with his abilities. He was nearly $250 million off on his cost out, in favor of the company.

Did you ever consider maybe he was correct in his cost out, Bob? AMR's losing money, everyone else without exception is making money. Maybe AMR should be hiring your economist?...

As to the comment that the company doesn't have professional negotiators. Hogwash. That's what Jim Weel, Taylor Vaughn (assuming they're both still there) and the other guys in Employee Relations do. And they have a team of lawyers, financial analysts to run numbers, and Ops Research folks to go build economic and operating models using AA's proprietary revenue management and capacity planning numbers.

You've got a couple guys with Microsoft Offce Home Edition running on laptops bought at Best Buy...

I do have to step back and say I find it entirely ironic that the two high-time posters "most accused of hating unions and supporting management" here are the ones telling you how to get a better contract.

Meanwhile, you're arguing it isn't necessary because you guys could do better.

The mind, it boggles sometimes....

 

[strikeforce]

APA brought them in late last year, after Hill was ousted from office and Bates took over. And they've allegedly made a lot more progress on a contract in that year than they did with Lloyd at the helm.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/11/alpa-unit-to-help-americans-pi.html



Did you ever consider maybe he was correct in his cost out, Bob? AMR's losing money, everyone else without exception is making money. Maybe AMR should be hiring your economist?...

As to the comment that the company doesn't have professional negotiators. Hogwash. That's what Jim Weel, Taylor Vaughn (assuming they're both still there) and the other guys in Employee Relations do. And they have a team of lawyers, financial analysts to run numbers, and Ops Research folks to go build economic and operating models using AA's proprietary revenue management and capacity planning numbers.

You've got a couple guys with Microsoft Offce Home Edition running on laptops bought at Best Buy...

And, a few guys with cowboy hats and salad bowl belt buckles, and others that have a rope belt and holes in their shoes.........and they call themselves negotiators, ha ha ha ha ha ha ...sorry I've got to laugh! 😛 😀 😱 :angry:

 

[Overspeed]

You've got a couple guys with Microsoft Offce Home Edition running on laptops bought at Best Buy...

Okay, that was funny and true.

Just want to point out that I heard that the ex-Pres of 514 said during one of his rants to the membership that Bob is frequent player of some game called airline mogul. That qualifies him to take on the company, NMB, Wall Street, and the media.

Bob is an airline and labor expert.