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Fireworks and drama in manhattan...

Dave, Dave, Dave...you need to control your anger.

The term sheet are not the final changes. As you pointed out already the UCC stated a deal must be made and since a deal has not been made and the situation is still fluid item 2) will not go in to effect until the equivalent savings has been achieved by AA. The Me Too clause will still be in effect after the term sheet has been implemented because the APA is still going to talk and work out a deal.

The TWU did not get out maneuvered. Calm down Dave. Your exuberance is premature.

My how your opinions change. Now you admit that negotiations will continue and that a better deal may come forth?
That was not your position as we were voting on our industry leading concessions.
What has changed your mind?

And at best, you will end up in Arbitration and told to pound sand.

5) Any alleged violation of these provisions will be resolved pursuant to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the applicable TWU Agreement.

Cannot read the "me too" clause?

Maybe we can have the teAAm of Hewitt and HSS put on this case for us against AA Attorneys?

TWU HAS INDEED BEEN OUT MANEUVERED,,,,,BADLY

And this actually pisses me off.
 
I will wait for the fat lady to sing if you don't mind.

This isn't over, the UCC said "a consensual" agreement IS REQUIRED, which I claimed all along.

TIme will tell, you can go celebrate with your sign out on the corner, I am going reserve judgement until all rounds of this fight are over.

Levine said a consensual agreement is not required. The UCC said otherwise in court today.
So put that in your fear pipe and smoke it.

The UCC says they want a consensual deal, but they won't approve anything for less than 17% requested by the Business Plan. Best case scenario now, is to get something similar to their voted down Tentative Agreement. Sharon Levine said a consensual deal is not a requirement to exit bankruptcy, which is much different than the UCC wanting a consensual deal before exiting bankruptcy.
 
AA employee loyalty is out the window...Unbelievable how a company will treat its employees...There will be NO AA without loyal employees...This could be The End Of AA
 
I probably helped 500 people get onboard and as many bags in the last few years.

No more.

They will unfortunately have to catch a later flight or stay overnight.
 

TWU Informer



For clarification I think the Pilots are correct and the implentation of their term sheet will will kill the TWU "me too". Any negotiations after the implementation will be irrelevant because this letter has been satisifed. Congrats TWU, you have been out maneuvered once again. Better have Levine make another video.


3) The Company further agrees that if it obtains modifications to agreements with other non-TWU union groups that result in labor cost savings to the Company from reduction in TWU represented employees working under TWU agreements, it will meet with TWU to discuss and agree upon an appropriate credit to the TWU based on the level of labor cost savings realized by the Company from that reduction.




You are wrong. Each work group was required to supply savings equivalent to twenty percent in steady state labor cost reductions per year over six years under the term sheet and seventeen percent under the LBFO. For the pilots under the rejected agreement it is approximately 262 million per year and, under the term sheet, over 370 million per year. If the Company implemented the concessions one day and took it back the next, as you suggest, they would not be implementing equivalent cost savings on the pilots as the other groups and, therefore, would obviously still be subject to the “me too”. Beyond that, the Company couldn’t implement all the concessions on the first day, the first month, or even the first year. The required changes in health care, pension and operations will take time and don’t produce immediate savings. The fact is, that there would not be “implementation” of the term sheet (or the LBFO) until all the terms are implemented and that will take years for all of the groups – probably long after six months after emergence from bankruptcy.


The other reason your interpretation is wrong is that, if it were true, there would be no point to the time limit on the me too. Why would the Company be concerned about limiting its “me too” commitment to six months after it emerges from bankruptcy, if it could simply implement allegedly equivalent concessions on a group like the pilots for one day and then be free to take them back and agree to whatever it wanted the next day without worrying about the “me too”. The time limit would be unnecessary and that is not how agreements are interpreted. I have no doubt who would win that arbitration if it comes up.


There is another problem with your argument. While the Company is in bankruptcy it is still under the jurisdiction of the court and the UCC. The UCC has stated it would not approve any agreement for any unionized group that adds value to what has been proposed. Of course, if you were pursuing a legitimate issue rather than just trying attack the TWU at every opportunity, you could request or have your Local President request an opinion from the lawyers who drafted this language. I don’t think they would have a difficult time answering you.
 
My how your opinions change. Now you admit that negotiations will continue and that a better deal may come forth?
That was not your position as we were voting on our industry leading concessions.
What has changed your mind?

And at best, you will end up in Arbitration and told to pound sand.

5) Any alleged violation of these provisions will be resolved pursuant to the grievance and arbitration procedures of the applicable TWU Agreement.

Cannot read the "me too" clause?

Maybe we can have the teAAm of Hewitt and HSS put on this case for us against AA Attorneys?

TWU HAS INDEED BEEN OUT MANEUVERED,,,,,BADLY

And this actually pisses me off.
No a better deal will not be coming. You only hear what you want to hear. The UCC has made it clear no more money is on the table and they will resist any effort to put more on the table. The APA may shuffle the chairs but they are still the same chairs.

The Me Too is strong and has already worked with all the groups that approved their contracts prior to AA reducing their ask from 20% to 17%. M&R and Stores got that value even without the Me Too in force. Outmaneuvered? Hardly the TWU's got your back Dave even when you refuse to admit it.
 
I agree, but if an organization will spend millions on a Democrat, and not representing the members, then they should and will be replaced.

You get no argument from me on that. Feel free to modify my signature picture... it fits your situation perfectly, yet there are people who don't realize they have the power to take control of their own destiny...

I was under the impression that the twu's legal fee's were paid for, or reimbursed, by AA. Kinda like that pre-paid legal plan that was payrole deducted a few years ago......I'm hearing 5-7 mil

There's a cap on what is reimbursed -- APFA is capped at $5M. APFA's hotline listed what other airline unions were able to be reimbursed. http://www.apfa.org/content/view/2402/982/

And I may need to correct myself... I can't find reference to where the reimbursement of legal fees is customary. It's been part of the LBO's, so I guess APA will have to fund its own lawyers for the time being... Maybe one of the attorneys or legal experts here could comment...
 
[font=Times New Roman']There is another problem with your argument. While the Company is in bankruptcy it is still under the jurisdiction of the court and the UCC. The UCC has stated it would not approve any agreement for any unionized group that adds value to what has been proposed. Of course, if you were pursuing a legitimate issue rather than just trying attack the TWU at every opportunity, you could request or have your Local President request an opinion from the lawyers who drafted this language. I don’t think they would have a difficult time answering you.[/font]

Are you honestly that ignorant? Or are you just argueing from habit?

AA will not be in Bankruptcy for much longer. Why can you not understand that?

AA could simply impose or "implement" the last T/A on the Pilots, the TWU "me too" would then be satisfied, Pilot negotiations will continue and while we wait and work six long years under the TWU strategy, then sooner rather than later, the Pilots will be working under a better agreement.

Why is that TWU zealots are blinded to what the truth is? Is it the Kool-Aid, Fear, or just plain dumbass?
 
The Die is Cast
posted on September 04, 2012 19:14


Fellow Pilots,

By virtue of the extensive training we have all undergone as longtime professional pilots, we are planners by nature. We’re accustomed to flight plans, checklists and the many other methodical procedures that are required for the safe operation of large transport jet aircraft.

Yet there’s no reliable forecast for what to expect next in light of Judge Lane’s decision today to grant AMR management’s revised motion to reject our contract. About the only prediction I’m willing to make is this—we’ll find out whether management decides to proceed with caution, or whether the urge to take punitive measures carries the day.

I am hopeful that management distinguishes between their wants and their needs and that they focus on their legitimate needs, rather than succumbing to temptation and indulging their wants. How management decides to treat the pilot corps at this unprecedented juncture in our airline’s history will be revealing. I said as much to AMR Chairman and CEO Tom Horton during a brief telephone conversation late this afternoon after Judge Lane issued his ruling.

While I will refrain from making a lot of predictions, I do want to offer some advice courtesy of a TV cop—be careful out there. Be sharp, be knowledgeable, watch out for each other and maintain your professionalism at all times. Management may soon be implementing unilateral changes to long-lived collective bargaining agreement work rules and procedures. Don’t get yourself in an indefensible position and don’t hesitate to call your chief pilot if you have a question. In fact, calling your chief pilot should become your first recourse.

If management decides to make unilateral changes, it’s their responsibility to explain to our pilots how those changes will work. Your APA leadership has informed management that we will not serve as their messengers. If management discards portions of our collective bargaining agreement and substitutes new terms of employment—and as a consequence you do not know what is expected of you—ask the Flight Department to provide a definitive answer. APA’s contract administrators will not be able to explain something that isn’t contractual.

Actually, there is one other prediction I’d like to make—management won’t be able to restructure successfully without first reaching a consensual agreement with us. During testimony today, the lead attorney for the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee was emphatic on that point, stating “there has to be a deal” between APA and AMR. He also emphasized that our two parties’ ability to craft a consensual agreement will be enhanced if management takes a circumspect approach to exercising their right to impose new terms of employment.

While we may be uncomfortable with the notion that management can now enact changes to our working conditions at will, I strongly suspect they and other important AMR stakeholders understand that’s not a recipe for long-term success in our brutally competitive, customer service-centric industry.

The APA Board of Directors is scheduled to convene at 1 p.m. Central Daylight Time on Monday, Sept. 10 at union headquarters in Fort Worth to determine next steps and to assess any information management provides us regarding their plans.

As Julius Caesar proclaimed after crossing the Rubicon, “Iacta alea est.” With Judge Lane’s ruling, the die truly has been cast and there will be no turning back. Now we must rely on one another more than ever as we remain focused on our ultimate objective—appropriate recognition and reward as pilots for a major U.S. carrier.

In unity,

Keith Wilson
APA President
 
Actually, there is one other prediction I’d like to make—management won’t be able to restructure successfully without first reaching a consensual agreement with us. During testimony today, the lead attorney for the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee was emphatic on that point, stating “there has to be a deal” between APA and AMR. He also emphasized that our two parties’ ability to craft a consensual agreement will be enhanced if management takes a circumspect approach to exercising their right to impose new terms of employment.

Keith Wilson
APA President



Maybe Mr. Wilson should have waited until Mr. Butler clarified is dramatic comments in court before making this statement.


[background=rgb(255,255,255)]http://aviationblog....ws.com/tag/apa/[/background]


[background=rgb(255,255,255)]Read the one about Creditors Comittee...Then read the paragraph that says UPDATE...It clarifies Mr. Butler's comments about having a consensual agrrement in place to exit BK......[/background]

[background=rgb(255,255,255)]UPDATE: [/background]

[background=rgb(255,255,255)][background=rgb(255,255,255)]We had a conversation with Butler after Tuesday’s hearing in which he elaborated on his courtroom comments. Let’s put it this way: Butler and the committee want a deal before exit, but he acknowledges that a company can have a plan of reorganization without new labor contracts in place.[/background][/background]


[background=rgb(255,255,255)][background=rgb(255,255,255)]Is this the same Butler? From the same article....[/background][/background]


[background=rgb(255,255,255)][background=rgb(255,255,255)]Butler repeated that the creditors committee will not support any contract that gives pilots more value than the one they overwhelming rejected on Aug. 8.[/background][/background]
 
No a better deal will not be coming. You only hear what you want to hear. The UCC has made it clear no more money is on the table

No, they say publicly that no more money will be on the table. What do you expect them to say? Saying anything else would not only weaken their bargaining stance, but also open the door to grievances from other groups for "me too" claims. All the company has to do is "re-value" concessions given in other areas and/or grossly undervalue gains made in re-negotiated areas and voila! "No extra value was given to the pilots".

You actually think AA management or the UCC would openly ADMIT giving the APA extra items?

and they will resist any effort to put more on the table.

Well duh. That's their job. The question is, what will cost them more - throwing a few crumbs to APA or the operational meltdown that is about to befall the airline.

The APA may shuffle the chairs but they are still the same chairs.

Then there will be no deal. No deal means at the very least a delayed exit from BK. Harder if not impossible for AA management to float an accurate POR or business plan for consolidation. How many banks would be willing to put money on the line for an airline that could be the next Eastern? How many other airlines' management teams want to be responsible for attaching their airline to the anchor of the Titanic?

The Me Too is strong

Actually, it was written very poorly for labor groups and has enough "outs" and loopholes for management large enough to fly a 777 through. You will find that out later.
 
“It was the creditors committee’s expectations that there will be consensual deals here with all the labor organizations in connection with the plan of reorganization, and we believe that is very important. We believe that the company knows that. We believe the APA knows the committee’s position in that respect.”

Without a doubt, they would like a contract in place, but they also want settlement, and dragging things out ultimately doesn't serve the UCC's best interests.

Given a choice of settlement or waiting for APA to agree to a contract, I suspect they'll take their money and run.
 
TWU informer "AA will not be in Bankruptcy for much longer. Why can you not understand that?

AA could simply impose or "implement" the last T/A on the Pilots, the TWU "me too" would then be satisfied"


Wow, we have another fortune teller and management strategist in our midst. Are we lucky or what?
 
TWU informer "AA will not be in Bankruptcy for much longer. Why can you not understand that?

AA could simply impose or "implement" the last T/A on the Pilots, the TWU "me too" would then be satisfied"


Wow, we have another fortune teller and management strategist in our midst. Are we lucky or what?

And another impressive posting from the peanut gallery that earns you the name "TWU Stooge".
 
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