HERE ARE THE PROPOSALS

[Hopeful]

eolesen:
What did you expect when you went into management, to be treated "SPECIAL."

You should quit your whining about unions getting all the fluff!


eolesen:

You're the type of person who complains about how overpaid professional athletes are, but continue to pay a premium for tickets to go see them!

 

[Buck]

It is my OPINION that we as union members will not be given a menu selection process. The TWU leadership will decide what to bring back to the membership to vote on. It is also my belief that the only reason this proposal was released for the membership to see was due to pressure brought forth by the TWU Local presidents and the memberships. The items in the proposal will be what the leadrship of the Air Transport Division and the TWU International determine is best for the membership at large. This will cause decension between the different work groups. The question is what proposal will be placed in front of the membership to achieve the savings required and to generate the largest amount of dues. This proposal not only divides the different work groups, it divides the workers within each group also.

 

[AAmech]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/6/2003 4:38:31 PM RV4 wrote:



A Bankruptcy Judge would give us better than this!

.----------------
[/blockquote]
Don't count on it. In Chap 11 we will get HAMMERED! A BK Judge will make this BS list look wonderfull!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Just about everyone on this thread(so far) are long time posters, and everyone has made valid points !

eoleson, I agree with you when you say that the "piper must be paid SOON"

Buck, your right about, that it remains to be seen, WHICH items are finally put up for a vote!

Having said that, you(TWU) must start from the beginning.
There are CERTAIN things that ABSOLUTELY, with out question, that AA must be told "are not open for discussion"
such as,
A. elimination of station/system protection(Bye-BYE $ 12,500 AND "bye-bye" small stations)

B. changes to the active/retiree pension plan(Let all "incumbent" employees choose "defined" or 401K, or set an age limit. Ex: age 50, or 55 get to choose defined, or 401K. ONLY because the 401K "crap" works against older employees)

C. NOTHING PERMANANT !!!!!!(Everything gets put back on the table, at renewal time)

Speaking only for myself, I rather take a 10-15% pay cut, to salvage those 3 items.

IMHO, I DON't think AA will run to cp-11, if they get the figures "close" to the $1.8B, problem is where is the real "make or break" figure ????

Ex: If the unions gave up a total of $1B, would AA realisticly head for "11", because they/we came up $800M short ??????

Your thoughts ??

NH/BB's

 

[RV4]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 336 PM AAmech wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/6/2003 4:38:31 PM RV4 wrote:



A Bankruptcy Judge would give us better than this!

.----------------
[/blockquote]
Don't count on it. In Chap 11 we will get HAMMERED! A BK Judge will make this BS list look wonderfull!
----------------
[/blockquote]


OK, so which of those wonderful "menu items" are you advocating instead of holding out?

 

[FWAAA]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 4:39:07 PM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

Just about everyone on this thread(so far) are long time posters, and everyone has made valid points !

C. NOTHING PERMANANT !!!!!!(Everything gets put back on the table, at renewal time)

IMHO, I DON't think AA will run to cp-11, if they get the figures "close" to the $1.8B, problem is where is the real "make or break" figure ????

Ex: If the unions gave up a total of $1B, would AA realisticly head for "11", because they/we came up $800M short ??????

Your thoughts ?
----------------
[/blockquote]

I've been around since PB - and the earlier incarnation of USAviation - but the constant bickering here keeps me lurking more than posting.

Think AA is going to give anyone $12,500? AA is almost out of cash. No one is going to get $12,500. Bank on that.

Hung up on permanent v. temporary?? So call them permanent but bring them up for re-negotiation if/when the good times return. Don't get hung up on semantics. Strike (when good times return) if AA won't negotiate on the "permanent" give-backs later.

I'm 100% certain that AA files for Ch 11 by April 30 if the unions only agree to $1 billion instead of $1.8 billion.

If the unions agree to $1.6 or $1.7 billion, then maybe AA will let the difference slide.

This is the company, after all, that paid out approx. $200 - $300 million each year to the employees during those good years of the late 1990's. In total, AA paid out just over $1.8 billion in profit sharing since 1984. And AMR lost over $5 billion in 2001-2002. Well, times ain't so good now, and it's not just future profitability that's in doubt, IT'S THE VERY SURVIVAL OF AA!

What all employees need to keep in mind is that AA still has over $3 billion of unencumbered airplanes. Problem is, nobody will loan money on them until AA demonstrates neutral cash flow instead of the approx. $5 billion daily negative cash flow ("cash burn").

Give AA the $1.8 billion, don't whine about "permanent" v. "temporary" (you can always strike later if/when profits return), and watch AA borrow another $2 billion or so at decent interest rates (which should allow AA to buy some choice UA assets by May or June, when UA liquidates), and then watch AA thrive. Once profitability returns, re-negotiate the problem areas.

Deny AA the concessions now, and watch AA follow the same sad fate as UA, US and all the other dead great carriers.

 

[KC tirechanger]

FWAAA,Why should these, or any other concessions be perminant? Is the currant ecconomic trend,in the country, perminant? Why should the TWU be expected to come up with $168 mill,without getting anything in return? Why won't upper management show us it's really serious about cutting cost on it's own level? Why do'es the company expect us to pick and choose off of their "Menu" of give backs? Please Sir,your answeers would interest us all!

 

[AirwAr]

It seems to me that everyone pretty much agrees that AA employees must make cuts, one way or another. Right now it appears that the question is how much of the requested amount to give and how to get that amount.

What would happen if the unions came up with half what was being asked for, $900 million? And agreed to make it effective immediately, not 3 months down the road, but tommorrow. From that point the unions would start negetiating on the $900 million to go.

Would doing this help AA's ability to get loans at a reasonable rate? Would it extend out any looming bankruptcy date?

I would think it have to extend the date somewhat. Possibly providing additional time for other factors to come into play that may help AA, such as a better economy and/or UA liquidation.It seems to me that everyone pretty much agrees that AA employees must make cuts, one way or another. Right now it appears that the question is how much of the requested amount to give and how to get that amount.

What would happen if the unions came up with half what was being asked for, $900 million? And agreed to make it effective immediately, not 3 months down the road, but tomorrow. From that point the unions would start negotiating on the $900 million to go.

Would doing this help AA's ability to get loans at a reasonable rate? Would it extend out any bankruptcy date that is looming?

I would think it have to extend the date somewhat. Possibly providing additional time for other factors to come into play that may help AA, such as a better economy and/or UA liquidation

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

As long as fuel prices continue to rise, to paraphrase the Rolling Stones, time is not on our side.

Hopefull, I haven't bought a ticket to a professional NBA or NFL sporting event in years. I never asked for preferential treatment ot management, but we certainly don't deserve third class treatment, either.

 

[Hopeful]

Who is treating you as third class? I hear my mangaers at work gloating how the unions are going to finally get screwed! How professional of them! For years we have heard about how overpaid and spoiled we are. When the profitable years were running rampant, management took care of themselves and we got 6 1/2% over six years. Management did not complain then. So AA hasn't given any raises to its ranks for a year and a half and now they're pissed. They still can't get over we actually got the raise we did even after 9/11. You chose management because you wanted toadvance your career. I have no problem with that. But don't continually blame labor contracts as the end all reason for AA's problems. Management must also take responsibility for some of the blame.

 

[Oliver Stone''s Apprentice]

[blockquote]
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On 3/10/2003 10:12:15 AM Hopeful wrote:

You chose management because you wanted toadvance your career. I have no problem with that.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Not all of us chose management. There are still quite a few of us who had jobs re-categorized as management back in 1994.

The cuts we're looking at will bring me to 1996 wages with 2003 expenses. How about you?

 

[FWAAA]

For all the employees who can't get past "Management is completely to blame for this mess" and because of that chant "Full Pay to the Last Day," at the current stock price, the employees could buy a controlling stake in AMR for less money than two weeks' wages.

Then you could fire all the management and replace them with "more competent management."

But then you're still faced with starting over with no seniority at your next gig. Does anyone really want to risk that?

 

[Hopeful]

If what I hear is correct, my wage will go back to about 1995.

 

[Hopeful]

If what I hear is correct, my wage will go back to about 1995.