HERE COMES THE LAYOFFS

[Duke787]

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).



Link

AA will never be the same company it was before the filing. If it does become that again, it will not survive.
[/quote]

I agree, but I think TULE could be saved by having a separate contract for OH, to make them competitive with MRO's. With pay adjustments and work rule changes I believe TULE can beet any MRO. Remember $25 an hour in OK is better then $33 an hour in NY. Working the weekends at TULE is better then working the weekend at Home Depot.

AA must want to keep OH, because they could of just outsourced everything. AA obviously sees the value of TULE.

 

[Duke787]

Bob Owen's line of thought is what I refer to as "the rub". Everyone will have to look at their personal situation and decide if they would like to continue working for AA. While many already have that answered for them, the remaining employees will have to decide if they can live with the cuts.

And people outside the industry do not have a clue why airline employees seem to have a chip on their shoulders. The only way for all of the hard times to go away is for the entire industry to quit giving away the product at a loss. If it takes consolidation, liquidation to get there the end result will be job security for the few remaining employees. I know many people who threw in the towel and left the industry, and most have regretted it.

We take layoffs and the PAX are getting free booze and paying the same price for a ticket as they were 10 years ago.

 

[devil505]

I count 8468 A&P's and 9610 Title 1 which is combined. Also they're "AMT"s in Tulsa that don't have certificates that are counted as A&P's.


I'm a long time reader of this forum and back Bob Owens. I just hope that he is as tough as he talks. My grandfather was a original 1936 "Flint sit-down" striker at GM. He use to show me his ax handle all the time. I always enjoyed going to union meetings with him since I a kid. I haven't been to a TWU meeting in over 15 years. The people make me want to vomit.

 

[strikeforce]

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).

AA will never be the same company it was before the filing. If it does become that again, it will not survive.

I agree, but I think TULE could be saved by having a separate contract for OH, to make them competitive with MRO's. With pay adjustments and work rule changes I believe TULE can beet any MRO. Remember $25 an hour in OK is better then $33 an hour in NY. Working the weekends at TULE is better then working the weekend at Home Depot.

AA must want to keep OH, because they could of just outsourced everything. AA obviously sees the value of TULE.
[/quote]
In one of my first posts on this forum I said that OSM's will outnumber AMT's in Tulsa. Tulsa will be the new Timco for AA. If I were Jim Little I would allow AA to have 5K OSM's running around Tulsa making $23 an hour. He can make up the dues deficit by concentrating on Line mechanics making more $$$$. That's a win-win for the TWU. We'll see what happens when the horse-trading begins next week??

 

[Birdman]

You're counting only Title 1, add in the others (Title II?) and there are over 11,000 maintenance and related at AA.

He said "maintenance workers" at UPS/SWA and "mechanics" at AA. Are they the same? AA's 9610 title 1 includes approx. 1124 OSM/AC/PW. That leaves 8486 mechanics. 8486/617=13.75 mechanics per a/c.

 

[xUT]

You are correct. There has been a paradigm shift in the airline industry as far as managing maintenance cost structure and capital. It started back in the late '90's. NWA was the last company to make a significant investment in maintenance of older aircraft. They did that in the late '80's and early '90's when they decided to keep the DC-9 for another 10+ years.

They had a great opportunity to grab a very skilled, out of work, group of A&P mechanics with an average of 10-12 years of experience. They hired a large group of Eastern Airlines A&P's and used them to do heavy maintenance on the DC-9 fleet. That saved them a great deal of cash.

Then we tossed the IAM and elected the AMFA. We gained a significant pay increase and got some outsourcing limitations added to out contract. At that time, the maintenance philosophy was changing along with the orders for new generation aircraft. NWA was very top heavy with A&P mechanics working in hangars that were all topped out in the pay scale. MRO's were on the rise overseas and here in the USA.

There was no way they were going to continue to pay hangar mechanics top wage (nor could they afford to and stay competitive) doing something that they can get done in Dothan, or Hong Kong at less than half the price. So they forced our hand and pushed the strike (I am not going to rehash that debate yet again here).

Like it or not, UPS and SWA have set the model of number of maintenance employees per aircraft. The ratio of on payroll maintenance workers at SWA is about 3.5; UPS is about 5.5.

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).



Link

AA will never be the same company it was before the filing. If it does become that again, it will not survive.

I have always refuted these 'HEADCOUNT numbers'. As Jetblue, SWA, UPS, etc... outsource all of their HMV's why not report the contractors headcount? Or at least separate line maintenance headcount from OH/HMV. That would be a better comparison. For OH/HMV we could take the OSV maintenance budget and calculate a headcount from that based on 'direct reports' pay & benefits. That never happened and I doubt it will be challenged again.

JMHO,
B) xUT

 

[Runwaysticker]

I have always refuted these 'HEADCOUNT numbers'. As Jetblue, SWA, UPS, etc... outsource all of their HMV's why not report the contractors headcount? Or at least separate line maintenance headcount from OH/HMV. That would be a better comparison. For OH/HMV we could take the OSV maintenance budget and calculate a headcount from that based on 'direct reports' pay & benefits. That never happened and I doubt it will be challenged again.

JMHO,
B) xUT

well I see the Line MTX Term Sheet is out

 

[WorldTraveler]

Bob Owen's line of thought is what I refer to as "the rub". Everyone will have to look at their personal situation and decide if they would like to continue working for AA. While many already have that answered for them, the remaining employees will have to decide if they can live with the cuts.

And people outside the industry do not have a clue why airline employees seem to have a chip on their shoulders. The only way for all of the hard times to go away is for the entire industry to quit giving away the product at a loss. If it takes consolidation, liquidation to get there the end result will be job security for the few remaining employees. I know many people who threw in the towel and left the industry, and most have regretted it.

except the airline industry is NOT collectively losing money any longer despite sustained high fuel prices with no reductions in sight and a weak economy here and in Europe that will likely reduce demand for the foreseeable future. The fact that AA was the only major carrier consistently losing money undoubtedly forced their hand in addressing the problem, $4B in the bank or not.
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It is true that outsiders to the industry don't fully "get" what airline employees have been thru, but most of the people on this forum have pretty strong connections to the industry even if they are not current employees. Further, the airline industry isn't the only one that has seen problems, even if the airline industry never seems to be able to catch a break and keep it for any length of time.
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Tech,
very good reminder of how NW got into the position it did... but let's also remember that NW was still recovering from the LBO and was very reluctant to spend alot of cash, esp. given that they really waited much longer than they should have to replace the D10s (in terms of their cost competitiveness).
It is true that the combination of the new 330s and a fairly young 320 fleet reduced NW's maintenance costs dramatically but NW also recognized from the day the AF-KL merger was announced that NW's long-term future was in doubt. I don't think there is any doubt that NW had to get reduce its longstanding labor tensions if there was a chance they could find a merger partner (whether it had been CO or DL) and the mechanics were the easiest group to push out the door.
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Regardless of what the AA mechanic to aircraft numbers say, employees on the books are counted differently in ANY company than contract costs. There are costs and obligations to hiring an employee that extend far beyond the yearly balance sheet and while companies try to do stuff like terminate DB pension plans to minimize those long term liabilities, it is still costlier to fire a group of employees than it is a contractor.... thus, companies that face uncertainty (as airlines do) will want to put enough contract capacity in their plans so they can adjust as needed.... BK should be a once in a lifetime experience and outside of BK there really are very limited opportunities to reduce costs and reset the operation.
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I still believe long term that AA not only will keep a decent chunk of maintenance inhouse not just because it makes longterm financial sense to do so but because they really can't get rid of the huge investment they have made w/o taking on huge losses - and those maintenance capabilities do have the potential to provide AA w/ some decent income.
There are a relatively small handful of airlines in the world that have maintenance capabilities on the scale that AA has.... they would be foolish to throw it all away - and I don't think they will.

 

[Bob Owens]

Like it or not, UPS and SWA have set the model of number of maintenance employees per aircraft. The ratio of on payroll maintenance workers at SWA is about 3.5; UPS is about 5.5.

AA has approximately 18 per aircraft (617 aircraft in the fleet and 11,500 mechanics).

Its not really an apples to apples comparasion. AA has around 3400 line mechanics, so around 5.5, the same as UPS, SWA has no widebodies, ETOPS operations and only has one fleet type. AA is looking to reduce that to around 4.8. Thats less than UPS and UPS doesnt have hundreds of seats, reading lights, several lavs etc to maintain either.

Now when we look at OH you have to remember that overhaul AMTs top out $1.05 (MRT=.50, Line=.55) less than the line and the average wage for the mechanic group is brought down even more due to the sizeable number of other Title 1 classifications that earn a fraction of what the A&Ps earn at the bases, for instace Building Cleaners top out at just $8.25/hr. Title II mechanics, even those on the line do not get MRT and get a lower skill premium.You cant figure AA pays $33/hr to 11,500 mechanics. Less than a third of the 11500 earn the top wage, all the rest top out considerably less. Most competitors did not have this wide spread in top pay. Out of 6600 at the bases under the Mechanics title less than 5000 are AMTs.

 

[tech2101]

That math is wAAy off. There's 9619 AMT's at AA. But the second part of your statement is very true

I only did back of the envelope math using google and the corporate and union websites.

I apologize if they are off a little. Also, I don't know what the "title" scheme is all about. I am used to mechanics being mechanics.

I know AA invented the "c" scale OSM, SRM, or whatever you call them.

 

[devil505]

Line AMT's: 3476
OH AMT's: 4992 counting non-A&P's but counted as AMT's at Tulsa
Total: 8468

Dated 2/4/12

 

[Buck]

Why is it that no one can define an AMT at American Airlines?

With a separate contract between the line and OH, then the line could finally shed itself from OH and obtain a different union. The line could get AMFA and that would leave OH with the TWU.

Having a large number of OSM's at OH would ensure a competitive wage comparable to the MROs, but would the FAA allow the majority of the aircraft in the United States to be maintained under such a program? I understand there is no need for all of these personal to be licensed, but will American Airlines want non A&P's in lieu of A&P's. Or to be blunt, can Title I non-licensed mechanics fulfill the company requirements on the aircraft docks?

In the event of a RIF, can the company keep the A&P's instead of the rest of the non-licensed Title I mechanics?

 

[700UW]

Under the NMB its the same class and craft has to be on the same CBA.

Only way to separate and get your own union is if AA totally spins off Overhaul and makes it a separate company and you cant transfer from the MRO to the line and the MRO would be bidding on the work.

 

[xUT]

I know AA invented the "c" scale OSM, SRM, or whatever you call them.

And UA invented the B'scale in retort.
But really, none of this matters today.
There is a greater 'GLOBALIZATION' force putting downward pressure on Merikans than ever before. Partially our own fault. As we didn't buy more expensive home made products, they were outsourced.
We are own own worst enemy!
When I worked in KSA, I laughed as they did not manufacture 'anything', now I look at us and shake my head.
FYI, none are sacrosanct from this 'wave' and it has and will include gooberment pay and benefits as well.
B) xUT

 

[AA89]

Its not really an apples to apples comparasion. AA has around 3400 line mechanics, so around 5.5, the same as UPS, SWA has no widebodies, ETOPS operations and only has one fleet type. AA is looking to reduce that to around 4.8. Thats less than UPS and UPS doesnt have hundreds of seats, reading lights, several lavs etc to maintain either.

Now when we look at OH you have to remember that overhaul AMTs top out $1.05 (MRT=.50, Line=.55) less than the line and the average wage for the mechanic group is brought down even more due to the sizeable number of other Title 1 classifications that earn a fraction of what the A&Ps earn at the bases, for instace Building Cleaners top out at just $8.25/hr. Title II mechanics, even those on the line do not get MRT and get a lower skill premium.You cant figure AA pays $33/hr to 11,500 mechanics. Less than a third of the 11500 earn the top wage, all the rest top out considerably less. Most competitors did not have this wide spread in top pay. Out of 6600 at the bases under the Mechanics title less than 5000 are AMTs.

Very good breakdown of the OH base's true numbers. I've always said AA is already outsourcing OH by having 25% of the workers getting paid 30% less than the licensed mechanics.
I posted on this forum a while back wondering why we can't compare our labor costs per available seat mile to the other airlines but I guess it gets fuzzy when other airlines don't count outsourced OH as labor costs. But someone somewhere has to know what it costs AA to overhaul a 777 and what an MRO will charge. Yes they have lower costs but after adding a profit margin to their lower costs I would think we would be close enough to offset the loss of quality, scheduling and future cost increases that outsourcing would bring.