I don't want any of the trickle down, free market capitalists on this forum to accuse me of being delusional. So, I would like to admit that for the first 16 years I was an employee working with a wide smile on my face. Not, because I liked my job more then than now, No I like it just as much now. But, because I looked around and continually saw how easy I(we) had it. Examples: You might remember the deals on the ramp that allowed us to get paid for eight hours of work when we really only worked for maybe 4 hours, or the three mechanics assigned per two gates. I would imagine that all work groups had similar examples. Oh how sweet it was. I now realize how much that mismanagement cost us. Could I, or any grunt for that matter, have done something? I doubt it. I actually tried once when I noticed that one whole shift in hangar 5 didn't seem to be accomplishing any work. A foreman’s response to me was that we don't want to make waves the work is getting done. I guess when an airline is making money in spite of itself they thought that it was unnecessary to address certain inefficiencies. I guess they were wrong!!! And we were wrong to believe that it would last forever. Both management and employee may have been blind. But, by definition management is responsible for lack of proper management.
How Did We Get Where We Are?
- Thread starter DCD
- Start date
DCD,
We defied the market place and simple economics and now it's time to pay up.BK 2 will require every employee to work harder for less money.Like Continental we're going to be working for BELOW market rates while this company fights it's way back to financial health.
US10
We defied the market place and simple economics and now it's time to pay up.BK 2 will require every employee to work harder for less money.Like Continental we're going to be working for BELOW market rates while this company fights it's way back to financial health.
US10
- Thread Starter
- #3
I'll reserve final judgement until I have these questions answered:1) what current and past employees will share the pain? 2) How fairly will the pain be shared? 3)How long will we have to live with the Pain? 4) and, finally will the pain make us stronger or will it just give the executives more time to raid the company cookie jar?us10 said:
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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us10 said:
Somewhat revisionist history....
CAL was on the way to oblivion in spite of the employees working for BELOW market rates until they got a management team that knew what they were doing. A management team that made the employees a part of the team and a part of the solution.
Not a management team that treats the employees as part of the problem and the employees' pockets as THE solution.
Jim
NeedForSpeedNFS
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- Mar 12, 2004
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DCD, Your first sentence says it all. But.... your statement as to mismanagement as being the blame for all of our ills is delusional. Don't misunderstand, this,and previous management teams AFTER Colodny,have made very disaterous decisions!! But, as you continue in your post, there is MUCH blame to go around from ALL work groups. The Company, AND the UNIONS.......YES, THE UNIONS, misjudged where the airline industry was headed. Add 9/11, LCC's, $52/barrel oil prices, and what do you have? You have a disaster! We can all sit here in front of our computers, and vent until hell freezes over!! The fact remains, it is a different industry now, and it will NEVER return to the "old" days!!! Everyone needs to accertain their situation, but this particular poster believes it's better to pursue another career path before it's too late!! The "gravy train" has ended!! This is reality, now. Prepare, move forward, and......Good luck to all!!!! GOOD DAY!!!!DCD said:
- Thread Starter
- #6
What , the unions should have negotiated a preemptive pay cut. Now who is delusional?NeedForSpeedNFS said:
NeedForSpeedNFS
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Now, don't try to twist my words!!!!!! Ala Kerry!!!! re-read my post, and try to absorb what I was saying in relation to your original post. What I was responding to was in your post, was the "country club" atmosphere that we have all enjoyed for all these years, and now it is comiming to an end......and guys like you, just want to blame management!!!!! They had their faults..... so did the UNIONS, that's what I was trying to say!! I am moving on!!! For those that stay, I wish you the best!!!!! Good luck, GOOD DAY!!!!DCD said:
This is a great topic with some respectable posts starting with the first one.
I once looked back at all the things we had and lost.
I think back when I was sharing one gate with two other guys and had to do four turn-around in one shift, we used to complain because one guy wouldn't show up for a push, I had to do two in a row and that was getting f__cked. I remember guys getting a "wheel-and-oil check" to do all night and asking the lead why he was getting boned for having to help another guy with a tire change.
Yes, ultimately it was mismanagement and ineffective use of man hours, but do I remember thinking, "man this company should have never hired me, they should have done more with less"? Nope. Did I think, "why am I getting triple time pay on Christmas to cover a guy who called off sick because his seniority did not allow him to have this day off"? Nope, I just did my four pushes and collected my triple time.
Well, it will neither help nor change the future to blame management or the union contracts that were allowed to be signed (which ulimately are managemnents fault). I say this becuse we as humans, employees and unions, will get away with as much as we can while we can. That is a fact.
The problem is, we can not believe or give in to the fact that our company is in great trouble and may go away like others have. There is no supported reason why we will not. Just blaming the company alone and repeating we can not trust them will change nothing.
So MY opinion is: I may not trust this upper management, and may not want to adjust my life to another pay and benefit cut, but I will. I will because I know that the guys who are trying to get us through this will be gone soon. There will be another CEO who will take over and have to put up with these leftovers and the same people will blame them for not being able to be trusted. The fact is there are people on this board who can point out everything every CEO has lied about and done wrong, but can they honestly point out what we have done wrong?
Lakefield was pulled out of retirement to help Bronner, do you think he cares about this airline or the industry or us? He will try to make this place survive long enough to build the earnings back up for the investors and he will be gone. Maybe there is a chance we wll make it long term and survive. We will have to sacrifice and make due with what we have left over. Soem do not want to work for less or give anything else back. Well they have a chance to vote or leave.
I am going to ride it out and hope for the best. The past will not change the future, unless we do not think like we did in the past. I have a lot to learn from the things I did wrong. I have been here for fourteen years. Most of the guys running this place now have no idea.
I once looked back at all the things we had and lost.
I think back when I was sharing one gate with two other guys and had to do four turn-around in one shift, we used to complain because one guy wouldn't show up for a push, I had to do two in a row and that was getting f__cked. I remember guys getting a "wheel-and-oil check" to do all night and asking the lead why he was getting boned for having to help another guy with a tire change.
Yes, ultimately it was mismanagement and ineffective use of man hours, but do I remember thinking, "man this company should have never hired me, they should have done more with less"? Nope. Did I think, "why am I getting triple time pay on Christmas to cover a guy who called off sick because his seniority did not allow him to have this day off"? Nope, I just did my four pushes and collected my triple time.
Well, it will neither help nor change the future to blame management or the union contracts that were allowed to be signed (which ulimately are managemnents fault). I say this becuse we as humans, employees and unions, will get away with as much as we can while we can. That is a fact.
The problem is, we can not believe or give in to the fact that our company is in great trouble and may go away like others have. There is no supported reason why we will not. Just blaming the company alone and repeating we can not trust them will change nothing.
So MY opinion is: I may not trust this upper management, and may not want to adjust my life to another pay and benefit cut, but I will. I will because I know that the guys who are trying to get us through this will be gone soon. There will be another CEO who will take over and have to put up with these leftovers and the same people will blame them for not being able to be trusted. The fact is there are people on this board who can point out everything every CEO has lied about and done wrong, but can they honestly point out what we have done wrong?
Lakefield was pulled out of retirement to help Bronner, do you think he cares about this airline or the industry or us? He will try to make this place survive long enough to build the earnings back up for the investors and he will be gone. Maybe there is a chance we wll make it long term and survive. We will have to sacrifice and make due with what we have left over. Soem do not want to work for less or give anything else back. Well they have a chance to vote or leave.
I am going to ride it out and hope for the best. The past will not change the future, unless we do not think like we did in the past. I have a lot to learn from the things I did wrong. I have been here for fourteen years. Most of the guys running this place now have no idea.
PITMTC,
Well said, but in order to get the employees to help and sacrifice once again, there has to be trust between labor and management, right now there is none.
This is the worst state of labor-management relations (lack of it) in my 16 years.
The employees need to be treated with respect and recognized for the good work and sacrifices all ready made to a tune of $2.4 Billion and 20,000 less employees with more to come.
A good management team would extend the olive branch and treat labor as equals instead of the enemy and the target.
The first thing that needs to be done is Jerry Glass and his cohorts need to be let go, and the company bring in some fresh blood for the unions to deal with.
Lakefield needs to read Gordon's Bethuene's book and Herb's on how to treat employees, that would be a good start.
Well said, but in order to get the employees to help and sacrifice once again, there has to be trust between labor and management, right now there is none.
This is the worst state of labor-management relations (lack of it) in my 16 years.
The employees need to be treated with respect and recognized for the good work and sacrifices all ready made to a tune of $2.4 Billion and 20,000 less employees with more to come.
A good management team would extend the olive branch and treat labor as equals instead of the enemy and the target.
The first thing that needs to be done is Jerry Glass and his cohorts need to be let go, and the company bring in some fresh blood for the unions to deal with.
Lakefield needs to read Gordon's Bethuene's book and Herb's on how to treat employees, that would be a good start.
NeedForSpeedNFS
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- Mar 12, 2004
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PITMTC.....Good HONEST response!!! Your convictions are good!!! If thats your choice, hang in there!! you'll be fine!!!!! You will do good!! GOOD DAY!!PITMTC said:
NeedForSpeedNFS
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- Mar 12, 2004
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700, I , for the most part agree with your post......BUT......There is NO trust between management and the Unions....Forget the typical "catch phrases" of the constant union rhetoric of "respect" for the workers!!! When are you going to realize that THEY hold the cards??? They are in BK!!! Forget about an "olive branch"!!! Are you serious???? The Unions are at the mercy of this company now!!!!! Understand that, and maybe you will sleep better at night!!! Your last phrase is is a classic, WE, "THE UNION", want certain management people to leave, and everything will be ok!!!!! LOL, You really do amaze me!!!! You still think that the union can control what the company wants to do????....... Your mistaken, my friend!!!!! GOOD DAY!!!700UW said:
PITMTC said:
Personally I believe you're still in denial hoping against hope there will be a place left for you "if" there is an airline left. I have more time than you do and hold every license there is and can move anywhere in the system, but guess what? I feel it's hopeless and thinking otherwise is only delaying the inevitable need to make a life change. The benefits part was the kicker for me. I can do a lot better elsewhere for benefits and that is "before" anymore cuts! You can too if you just look around and stop dreaming. I understand they want to take down the mainline A/C number further and at your seniority one A/C will be too many, and they are looking at a hell of a lot more than one A/C.
On the one hand I can appreciate your mind set, you will probably never again find such a place to work unless you are one lucky SOB or have some heavy duty pull at some other desirable outfit.
I will not lie, it was not easy to let go, but it was necessary and I really believe it will become necessary for a lot more and fast if not for everyone and fast.
Good Luck in the game called life.....
Go ask Mr William O'Driscoll about what cards unions hold. If you knew the history of TWA, they took five rounds of concessions and management was replaced before the unions signed on the dotted line.
The unions can cause this place to go out of business, don't be so fast to think they and their members have no power.
The unions can cause this place to go out of business, don't be so fast to think they and their members have no power.
700UW said:
Thank you 700 for honoring my last post and I fully agree with you response. Trust is something that is built not replaced. One of the points in my last post is that unless you give someone a chance, and I mean longer than a couple of months, we are not going to even begin to trust our new CEO. Glass is a totally different can of worms, we all know what his claim to fame is and he will fight tooth and nail to not change his record.
As for Bruce, he has come into this at a bad time. He has to get certain things done and sometimes there is no time for lovey-dovey. He may turn out to be a good leader when things are going good, but right now, you need someone who is going to make tough decisions.
As for this post I just quoted, while you may be right that the union may hold a good hand, there is nothing I hate more than a union member that states that the union could take this place out of business. :angry: That is not what unions are here for RIGHT? It is for opinions and attitudes like this that management feels they need to play hard ball. Trust and fair play goes both ways. I bet the company can put all of us out on the streets before the union can get the "go by the book" work out. So why the need to exploit it. There is no good in it.
So much for agreeing with you and being on the same page. <_<
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