M&R how we can get a consensual agreement

[jimntx]

Just a question from an interested bystander who is also going to get screwed by AMR...why would anyone vote YES on any ta in which the section entitled Job Security was left blank? The mind boggles.

 

[CMH_GSE]

Jimntx, the answer to your question is: human nature. It's in our DNA to survive.
If you are drowning In the sea and someone throws you life preserver do you say, screw that, I will only live long enough for the sharks to eat me, or do you grab it and give yourself a chance at living a little longer?

That's about the best analogy I can think of.
For some a no vote was certain job loss, a yes vote kept them working or kept them from having to move.
Of course the contract was terrible, I have heard of NO ONE that said it was a great deal , but to some it was better than total loss of job.

 

[Mr Red]

The preserver has a hole in it ,a BIG one !

 

[FWAAA]

Just a WAG here, but perhaps the 4,000+ yes voters had their eye on the (up to) $39k early out possibility (it wasn't guaranteed to all takers) and thus, weren't too concerned with job security.

 

[CMH_GSE]

Certainly the money was a factor for some, not all yes voters.

 

[olderguyAMT]

We need to stand together and back each other up. This could be the start of something good for ALL OF US. Now we have shown the company that we are done taking all the crap. This is an opportunity to actualy have a union and ALL WORK TOGETHER for one cause.

Have you read the LBO working together LOM? Truly amazing at all the stuff they want from us.
And the company has assigned a ZERO value to that towards the cost ask, while paying us below average wages and benefits. Go figure.

Just another reason for the NO vote. when will that change?

 

[Overspeed]

The offer was engineered to pass - and seem like not so bad of a deal when compared with the term sheets. Actually brilliant, almost worked; thankfully enough of the membership have had enough of this BS. You will always have your union blind follower types as evidenced by the likes of Overspeed & Strake. Those types never question the motives of the international or any local leadership.

Oh I did not try to sell it, I was informing. Some people such as yourself are trying to convince people that they will get a better deal if they voted it down but we will see if that's true very soon. In fact some may get a better deal if the 3/22 CBA is rejected, eventually. That will be many years down the road after 4,000 plus jobs are cut. Maybe you will be one of the survivors but as you watch those 4,300 walk out what will you say? "It was for the cause brother."

Again, I hope I am wrong. I hope we get a better deal out of the 1113c process.

 

[Rogallo]

Jimntx, the answer to your question is: human nature. It's in our DNA to survive.
If you are drowning In the sea and someone throws you life preserver do you say, screw that, I will only live long enough for the sharks to eat me, or do you grab it and give yourself a chance at living a little longer?

That's about the best analogy I can think of.
For some a no vote was certain job loss, a yes vote kept them working or kept them from having to move.
Of course the contract was terrible, I have heard of NO ONE that said it was a great deal , but to some it was better than total loss of job.

Apples and oranges, dude..!!

 

[Vortilon]

No one likes to see people get let go. It has been said many times alraedy on this board - let's not have a repeat of 2003. We as union members are done giving up pay and benefits so the international can take credit for saving jobs! If AA needs to cut the jobs, so be it. We are done with the forced, non tax deductable,TWU charitable contributions.

 

[Hopeful]

Oh I did not try to sell it, I was informing. Some people such as yourself are trying to convince people that they will get a better deal if they voted it down but we will see if that's true very soon. In fact some may get a better deal if the 3/22 CBA is rejected, eventually. That will be many years down the road after 4,000 plus jobs are cut. Maybe you will be one of the survivors but as you watch those 4,300 walk out what will you say? "It was for the cause brother."

Again, I hope I am wrong. I hope we get a better deal out of the 1113c process.

At what point do we say enough is enough?
Would you be willing to help eliminate the unemployment problem in this country by working for minimum wage?
No one is cheering the loss of jobs with the hopes of others achieving gains.
Should we all take huge paycuts to save jobs? Is that truly the answer?

I don't know about you, but there are areas in this country where our wage barely cuts it.

 

[Vortilon]

Oh I did not try to sell it, I was informing. Some people such as yourself are trying to convince people that they will get a better deal if they voted it down but we will see if that's true very soon. In fact some may get a better deal if the 3/22 CBA is rejected, eventually. That will be many years down the road after 4,000 plus jobs are cut. Maybe you will be one of the survivors but as you watch those 4,300 walk out what will you say? "It was for the cause brother."

Again, I hope I am wrong. I hope we get a better deal out of the 1113c process.

Are you adopting this motto? "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs".

 

[Tater Salad]

Jimntx, the answer to your question is: human nature. It's in our DNA to survive.
If you are drowning In the sea and someone throws you life preserver do you say, screw that, I will only live long enough for the sharks to eat me, or do you grab it and give yourself a chance at living a little longer?

That's about the best analogy I can think of.
For some a no vote was certain job loss, a yes vote kept them working or kept them from having to move.
Of course the contract was terrible, I have heard of NO ONE that said it was a great deal , but to some it was better than total loss of job.

Let me add to that analogy....

So you have your life preserver and you're sitting there in the water and you spot a ship parked a mile away. Do you chuck the life preserver and swim for it? Sure, its gonna hurt, and you might not make it, and the ship might pull away before you get there.....

IMO we just chucked our life preserver and are at least fighting for a chance for REAL survival. Time will tell if we make it or the ship sails away from us. At least we TRIED.

 

[CMH_GSE]

Good one Tater.
I totally get why the folks voted no, and I also get why the folks voted yes.

Everyone has their reasons and they vary from person to person.
I am now hoping all the arguments made by the no crowd turn out to have some merit.
Also hoping Judge Lane goes way against the grain of history and rules in our favor.
I do believe the M&R group have a compelling case Against rejection, I just wasn't willing to bet against such long odds, and they are very long indeed.

 

[Strake]

I am glad that you are finally coming around. It is rather obvious that someone needs to get us a better contract, because the TWU failed to participate in the last vote. Why would any no voter require a T-Shirt? That is a TWU tactic when they lose. That is why there have been so many TWU T-Shirts over the years. HSS HSS We will Strike if Provoked! I mean HSS HSS We will Strake if Provoked!

Strake if provoked.... good one. lol I've always thought the slogan T-shirts were a joke and a waste of money. Really, strike if provoked? Really? I just figured you brave NO voters would be proud of your accomplishment (It is quite the accomplishment). If I was a NO voter I would wear one. I would be sure to wear one while walking around in the Reasors parking lot in Owasso on a Saturday morning right after the Riffs begin and then switch to the Dollar General parking lots later on. It's not that "I'm finally coming around". I'm just as pissed about the whole mess as anyone else. The thing is, I've never really grasped how we can have any power if we can't even strike. I've never had a problem thriving in a non-union shop. The only reason I came to AA was for the money and benefits. So much for those... Yea or Nay, looks like the good times are over at AA.

 

[TWU informer]

Why does both sides of this vote, sound as if they are defeated?
Only because the TWU is using the defeatist mentality in the media, and on the Tulsa base.

There is more than one way to solve the problem of obtaining a future.

I can assure that the continued mentality of defeat and the continuation of a base ran by the so-called inmates is not the answer.
Concessions for jobs is a deafeatist idea and as has been pointed out, equates to a form of another TWU unconditional surrender.

We may have to bend here in this situation, but unconditional surrender or expressing defeat will lead to nothing more than defeat.

Strake, the best way to obtain money and benefits is to earn every dime you are paid. The Culture of the Tulsa Base is not there but could be if certain changes were put in place and the membership was lead to understand why the changes are needed and we have some assurances that in exchange we will see a management team commited to the future of overhaul. In exchange for good pay and benefits the employee should and will become a partner is the success. Every "working together" or other consulting firm scam has been brought forward right after employees are raped of pay and benefits. Let's try something else. Let's try cutting heads, improving productivity and allow accountability to become the norm. In exchange for a return of some pay and benefits most employees I know and talk with would embrace this idea. But we have to get through the idea of concessions for jobs and the defeatist mental retards.

As I said, every attempt to change the culture of the Tulsa Base has been after concessions. Let's try returning pay and benefits in exchange for a culture change. Simple idea, never tried. No better time than right now.