How Many Have Crossed?

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Actually,most of the ex-eastern strikers I have talked too say the IAM international was a bunch of cowards. It was the strong locals at eastern that had the guts to take on lorenzo and shut that airline down. NWA is headed to the same fate as eastern. It will just the same amount of time or less before NWA shuts down.

 

[aafsc]

Actually,most of the ex-eastern strikers I have talked too say the IAM international was a bunch of cowards. It was the strong locals at eastern that had the guts to take on lorenzo and shut that airline down. NWA is headed to the same fate as eastern. It will just the same amount of time or less before NWA shuts down.

I agree. The IAM international along with the AFL-CIO were/are cowards because of their failure to shut it all down in 1989. It was the local/district IAM membership at EAL that fought the fight all by themselves.

 

[Hackman]

Hackman, I find your last paragraph interesting. You say that the other unions should have supported AMFA at NW; and in terms of real unionization they should have. But was AMFA really a union in terms of it's true beliefs or really just an association of elitist aircraft mechanics who heard everything they wanted to hear from Delle? Did they not exchange the word "union" in their last contract to "association" everywhere it appeared?I remember all of the rhetoric over the years that came from AMFA; things like "the bagsmashers are riding the mechanics' coattails and are holding us back", and "we don't need strength in numbers, our skills will shut the airline down". Remember how the vast majority of aircraft mechanics referred to the ramp personell as "bag apes", "knuckle draggers" and the like? Now Bob Owens will rightfully ask, "was it individual mechanics that did this or AMFA reps"? I think that question can be best answered by (I believe it was TWU informer) who in another post stated "AMFA is the membership." AMFA members claimed that Steenland is an elitist and is way overpaid (which he definately is) but claim that they can't live off $35/hr. Yet they turn around and say topped out rampers with 15 or more years who make $20/hr an hour are way overpaid and feel should make less than what even Steenland wants to pay them. Of course, the minority like Bob Owens disagree with this, but as you told me earlier people like Bob are definately not the majority. So how in the world could have the AMFA members at NW expected support from the "overpaid bag apes" when the AMFA members ridiculed, demeaned, and spat on them? Not to mention the fact that the IAM bosses are still incensed by the loss of the mechanic's dues.

Lets assume for a minute that the IAM did walk with AMFA and NW shut down. If that had happened, I can guarantee you that AMFA and it's members would have claimed "it was strength in withholding our skills that shut NW down and not the fact that the "bagsmashers" walked with us." Of course that would have been the big debate. So by AMFA walking out by themselves (witholding their skills) we can clearly see that NW was able to keep flying.
The reasons for the failed AMFA strike in my opinion are as follows:

1. AMFA and it's members contempt for other groups (especially the ramp) ensuring no support.

2. The AMFA leaderships failure to close the outsourcing loopholes (even if they inherited it from the IAM). This allowed NW to replace 50% of it's mechanics long before the strike began.

3. AMFA's failure to realize that NW wanted them off the property forever and the fact that they underestimated NW management's resolve to accomplish this. NW management starting planning this as soon they felt humiliated after the last contract.

You say you smile for what will probably happen to the IAM for not supporting the AMFA strike. There is only one course of action left for the IAM membership at NW if they are unwilling to work for what NW is proposing. It just comes down to a question of whether the IAM will listen to it's members or be more concerned about collecting dues at any price.

I see we are back to square one again with the ramp vs mechanic issue again aafsc. You want to argue the "elitest" mechanic again, but you don't call F/A's or the pilots "elitest" for being in or attempting to organize in their respective class and craft. Seems one-sided to me. I am not going to re-hash it again. This problem is much bigger than who's a "elitest", "grease monkey" or "bag ape". I also never read where AMFA claimed Steenland is "elitest", he's much worse than that. Delle and the NEC informed all who would listen that this was the start of a large scale attack on all NWA employees, all US workers, not just mechanics. Delle was right, as we are about to see. AMFA warned of the coming attack 2 years ago, and told its members to prepare for the worst. In fact, some unions like the UAW saw this as an attack on all labor, they supported AMFA against the afl-cio (do-nothings) wishes, and it has come to pass they were right also, with GM coming to workers with their hand out.

Now its time for the iam (association?) and the others (ALPA,PFAA)that thought they were immune, or because they hate AMFA, to pay the price. Make a deal with the NWA devil? Not today folks. The iam "leadership" sent a insulting letter to Delle in response to his warning about managements vile intentions, and they scoffed at the sad truth they were next. I said I smiled because I thought of the stupidity of the iam leadership, not the workers who will be suffering. The iam listen to its members? They consistantly refused, its why they have lost so many members. The iam started the outsourcing at NWA and UAL, they are not as weak as the twu, but the iam has not and will not fight for its membership. NWA declared war on its mechanics, and they had to use the Force Majeure language to desimate them. No union could have stopped this, certainly not the iam or twu. AMFA tried to bargain in good faith, but NWA management thugs had no intention of "bargaining" at all, which hopefully will be proven in court at some point because this is illegal, and against the RLA.

NWA is a dangerous airline, and the airlines performance and FAA reports show this. I have informed all my family and friends not to fly NWA, ever. Now management is going to come after the rest of the workers. It appears the plan is liquidation, thats where it will end it seems, unfortunately. Except for the criminals with the golden parachutes, who will walk away unscathed.

:down: :down: :down:

 

[aafsc]

I see we are back to square one again with the ramp vs mechanic issue again aafsc. You want to argue the "elitest" mechanic again, but you don't call F/A's or the pilots "elitest" for being in or attempting to organize in their respective class and craft. Seems one-sided to me. I am not going to re-hash it again. This problem is much bigger than who's a "elitest", "grease monkey" or "bag ape". I also never read where AMFA claimed Steenland is "elitest", he's much worse than that. Delle and the NEC informed all who would listen that this was the start of a large scale attack on all NWA employees, all US workers, not just mechanics. Delle was right, as we are about to see. AMFA warned of the coming attack 2 years ago, and told its members to prepare for the worst. In fact, some unions like the UAW saw this as an attack on all labor, they supported AMFA against the afl-cio (do-nothings) wishes, and it has come to pass they were right also, with GM coming to workers with their hand out.

Now its time for the iam (association?) and the others (ALPA,PFAA)that thought they were immune, or because they hate AMFA, to pay the price. Make a deal with the NWA devil? Not today folks. The iam "leadership" sent a insulting letter to Delle in response to his warning about managements vile intentions, and they scoffed at the sad truth they were next. I said I smiled because I thought of the stupidity of the iam leadership, not the workers who will be suffering. The iam listen to its members? They consistantly refused, its why they have lost so many members. The iam started the outsourcing at NWA and UAL, they are not as weak as the twu, but the iam has not and will not fight for its membership. NWA declared war on its mechanics, and they had to use the Force Majeure language to desimate them. No union could have stopped this, certainly not the iam or twu. AMFA tried to bargain in good faith, but NWA management thugs had no intention of "bargaining" at all, which hopefully will be proven in court at some point because this is illegal, and against the RLA.

NWA is a dangerous airline, and the airlines performance and FAA reports show this. I have informed all my family and friends not to fly NWA, ever. Now management is going to come after the rest of the workers. It appears the plan is liquidation, thats where it will end it seems, unfortunately. Except for the criminals with the golden parachutes, who will walk away unscathed.

:down: :down: :down:

As I have posted before, there is nothing wrong with the aircraft mechanics wanting their own union. The reason why they are seen by some as "elitists" is because of they way they handled their departure from the IAM at NW. If they would have just told the IAM members at NW; "we are going to AMFA because we feel it serves our needs better as aircraft mechanics and we want a craft union like the pilots and F/As," without all of the derogatory remarks attacking the dignity of those who remained in the IAM, then they would not have been seen as elitists and there would have more than likely much more support from those people ( their IAM leadership is a different story however).

With regards to force majure, why was it that the mechanics seemed to be the only ones affected at NW? OK. I will say that there was farmout provisions in the contract when the IAM represented the mechanics. But why would NW keep 10,000 mechanics on payroll if it could have farmed all that work out? Further more, should not have the AMFA completely closed those farmout provisions and negotiated extremely limited force majure if any at all?

As to the others, I agree. ALPA will cave on demand. PFAA could very well walk. As for the IAM, even though they may suck on the international levels, the district/locals at NW may very well strike if they vote no and are very vocal about it and they refuse to vote again. Afterall, it was the IAM local/district at EAL that fought the battle with no help from the international or AFL-CIO. I also agree that NW performance is at the bottom of the DOT charts and this was the way it was at EAL. Unfortunately, the people at the top will walk away with mountains of money the same way they did at EAL.

 

[proAMFA]

I'm not sure I understand the hostility toward "corporate America". Is this just an insatiable need to blame some other nameless entity for all of one's own problems? I understand it's really easy to do so, but one must admit that it's also very intellectually lazy.

"Corporate America" is a made up of millions of individuals and stockholders that build a company with the motive of generating a profit. They hire people in the quest for this profit, not out of some obligation for the "greater good", and they pay that individual what he/she is worth on the open market. It's up to the individual to instill in themselves marketable skills to compete in the marketplance.

If a group of workers decide that they are worth more than the market bears, then they are free to quit, which is exactly what AMFA members decided to do. The company in question here is fighting to survive, and was willing to offer fair compensation for the work that needed to be done. The fact that there were a lot of willing mechanics that would jump at the chance to work for a legacy carrier should be of no surprise, because you have to have be completely illiterate in basic macroeconomics to think that a particular skill is always going to be worth certain wage rate.

It seems somewhat childish to me to cling to this Marxist notion that it's the workers vs the evil corporations, when a vast majority of us are shareholders of some kind. Just as public schools often reward mediocrity and stifle excellence and achievement, the same can be said of unionism as it exists today. I'm curious; do union members congratulate a member that gets promoted to management, or do they cross them off their Christmas Card list? Do union members work late, off the clock, to make sure a job gets done, or would that be discouraged as well?

I guess I have a hard time grasping the reasons behind the anger and resentment that seems to permeate from the leftist unions. I was raised to believe that your worth is in the self, and that if you are relying on anybody else (union, government) to take care of you, then you are basically are an overgrown child. That isn't meant to be harsh, but I think that is what drives most people to never be in a situation where they need to rely on someone else to take care of their family.

I understand that a corporation is a faceless, heartless, pool of investors in search of profit. It is the behavior and actions that some corporations are allowed to get away with by our government and spineless work groups that I have a problem with. It is not intellectually lazy to blame a certain corporation when that corporation’s actions have caused problems. That’s calling a spade a spade. Were the workers at Enron nothing more than whiners and crybabies for not being able to pull out of their funds when corporate officers were? A corporation MUST be held accountable for its actions. My point is there is not enough accountability right now. Why is it O.K. for a corporation to shed its obligations to part of its workforce but not the other? Why is it O.K. for an irresponsible corporation to benefit for behaving irresponsibly while more responsible corporations find themselves paying a higher price because they did not behave irresponsibly? Why must the responsible corporations or the taxpayer or a combination of the two have to pay for an irresponsible corporation’s actions?

Northwest took advantage of the current situation as far as availability of licensed mechanics-it’s not against the law. I agree with the whole supply and demand argument. The problem I have is with a member of my own work groups prostituting himself for a lessor amount of wages and benefits, to the detriment of the whole workgroup. His action will cause wages and benefits to decrease for the workgroup as a whole.

Instead of this person’s wife being proud of the wages and benefits he is now earning at the cost of the workgroup as a whole I believe the better action would have been to support the workgroup rather than being happy about weakening it. As the demand for qualified mechanics increased this particular mechanic would have found an easier time finding a good career job with a living wage that also had decent benefits. Most would find that a better solution than working contract to contract or working for an irresponsible employer. By this person taking a spot at lower cost he has not only reduced the demand but driven wage and benefits down for the other qualified mechanics.

I prefer a team approach while others prefer an approach were they come first at the expense of everybody else.

Like you I believe that I have a lot of self worth. I believe the qualities that make me desirable can be increased in a factorial manor when I am part of a group of other skilled individuals working as a team.

Believe me I don’t rely on my union but I do like to benefit from the rewards of working as a team.

 

[smmech]

Anyone meet a scab at NWA named Jim Rothkib not sure on the spelling... Hes a waste of skin. Old guy with an attitude, and he's a hack.. F'n scab

 

[smmech]

I'm not sure I understand the hostility toward "corporate America". Is this just an insatiable need to blame some other nameless entity for all of one's own problems? I understand it's really easy to do so, but one must admit that it's also very intellectually lazy.

"Corporate America" is a made up of millions of individuals and stockholders that build a company with the motive of generating a profit. They hire people in the quest for this profit, not out of some obligation for the "greater good", and they pay that individual what he/she is worth on the open market. It's up to the individual to instill in themselves marketable skills to compete in the marketplance.

If a group of workers decide that they are worth more than the market bears, then they are free to quit, which is exactly what AMFA members decided to do. The company in question here is fighting to survive, and was willing to offer fair compensation for the work that needed to be done. The fact that there were a lot of willing mechanics that would jump at the chance to work for a legacy carrier should be of no surprise, because you have to have be completely illiterate in basic macroeconomics to think that a particular skill is always going to be worth certain wage rate.

It seems somewhat childish to me to cling to this Marxist notion that it's the workers vs the evil corporations, when a vast majority of us are shareholders of some kind. Just as public schools often reward mediocrity and stifle excellence and achievement, the same can be said of unionism as it exists today. I'm curious; do union members congratulate a member that gets promoted to management, or do they cross them off their Christmas Card list? Do union members work late, off the clock, to make sure a job gets done, or would that be discouraged as well?

I guess I have a hard time grasping the reasons behind the anger and resentment that seems to permeate from the leftist unions. I was raised to believe that your worth is in the self, and that if you are relying on anybody else (union, government) to take care of you, then you are basically are an overgrown child. That isn't meant to be harsh, but I think that is what drives most people to never be in a situation where they need to rely on someone else to take care of their family.

Leftist, marxist, liberal , socialist, communist... WTF .. Anti corporate redoricte??/ Read.... Read..... Open your eyes and READ.... Dont listen to FOX news, or read the corporate owned news... go beyond and READ.. Its a capitolist soiciety yes, but to what end. Screw the people in LA, FL, TX they can fend for themselfs. Corporations are not made up of millions of individual shareholders as you state.. The are made up of large corporate shareholder. Most companys all thought public are accually controlled by other corporate/finacial institutions. I being neither one of these entities like them have to do the best to look out for myself.. I.E. UNIONS. lacky...

 

[Bob Owens]

Hackman, I find your last paragraph interesting. You say that the other unions should have supported AMFA at NW; and in terms of real unionization they should have. But was AMFA really a union in terms of it's true beliefs or really just an association of elitist aircraft mechanics who heard everything they wanted to hear from Delle? Did they not exchange the word "union" in their last contract to "association" everywhere it appeared?

AMFA is a union. Are the IBEW, ALPA, AFA, and any other Craft union excluded from what you consider to be real unions? The fact is even business unions that call themselves Industrial unions like the IAM go by "Association", International Association of Machinists. You are too caught up in the TWUs BS to see the truth.

I remember all of the rhetoric over the years that came from AMFA; things like "the bagsmashers are riding the mechanics' coattails and are holding us back", and "we don't need strength in numbers, our skills will shut the airline down". Remember how the vast majority of aircraft mechanics referred to the ramp personell as "bag apes", "knuckle draggers" and the like?

The "vast majority"??? Come on now, you have not heard guys from Fleet call mechanics "nothing but parts changers" or complain that "mechanics sit around and watch TV all day"? The fact is the relationship between us was bad, and that has been directly the result, perhaps intentional, of the TWU.

Now Bob Owens will rightfully ask, "was it individual mechanics that did this or AMFA reps"? I think that question can be best answered by (I believe it was TWU informer) who in another post stated "AMFA is the membership."

While its probably more true of AMFA than the TWU that the union is the membership the fact is that every union is this industry is made up of people that the company chose to hire, not that the union sought out to be members so we have a wide spectrum of members, many who may even be anti-union.

AMFA members claimed that Steenland is an elitist and is way overpaid (which he definately is) but claim that they can't live off $35/hr. Yet they turn around and say topped out rampers with 15 or more years who make $20/hr an hour are way overpaid and feel should make less than what even Steenland wants to pay them.

That sounds like a typical TWU lie to me. Show me where AMFA says that ramp workers should be paid less so AMFA members could make more.

Of course, the minority like Bob Owens disagree with this, but as you told me earlier people like Bob are definately not the majority. So how in the world could have the AMFA members at NW expected support from the "overpaid bag apes" when the AMFA members ridiculed, demeaned, and spat on them?

Spat on them?

Not to mention the fact that the IAM bosses are still incensed by the loss of the mechanic's dues.

On that we agree. The IAM and other unions are so incensed with AMFA that they would lets all their members get screwed just to make a point. Lets not forget that these un-removable "leaders" have not taken any pay or benifit cuts through all this carnage. In fact Little got a huge raise while we took a 25% reduction to compensation.

Lets assume for a minute that the IAM did walk with AMFA and NW shut down. If that had happened, I can guarantee you that AMFA and it's members would have claimed "it was strength in withholding our skills that shut NW down and not the fact that the "bagsmashers" walked with us." Of course that would have been the big debate. So by AMFA walking out by themselves (witholding their skills) we can clearly see that NW was able to keep flying.

The reasons for the failed AMFA strike in my opinion are as follows:

1. AMFA and it's members contempt for other groups (especially the ramp) ensuring no support.

False. Many ramp workers at NWA were disgusted by the fact that their union had them doing struck work. AMFA has in fact offered support to other unions and even has it written into their contract that they can honor legal pickets.

2. The AMFA leaderships failure to close the outsourcing loopholes (even if they inherited it from the IAM). This allowed NW to replace 50% of it's mechanics long before the strike began.

AMFA was blocked by the NMB from doing that. The NMB forced AMFA to settle for less than they could have gotten. You forget that our contract allows the company to outsource 50% of our work, actually more because Non-union foreign workers are counted as part of the "in house" percentage. So AA could transfer work overseas and it would still be considered in house.

3. AMFA's failure to realize that NW wanted them off the property forever and the fact that they underestimated NW management's resolve to accomplish this. NW management starting planning this as soon they felt humiliated after the last contract.

You leave out the fact that the other unions under the AFL-CIO were probably a part of this too. Sad to see how unions will try to punish other unions that actually try to make their members lives better instead of selling them out while making the leaders rich.

You say you smile for what will probably happen to the IAM for not supporting the AMFA strike. There is only one course of action left for the IAM membership at NW if they are unwilling to work for what NW is proposing. It just comes down to a question of whether the IAM will listen to it's members or be more concerned about collecting dues at any price.

I have no doubt that the IAM will not strike. And I have no doubt that when all is said and done that mechanics will fare better than Fleet service clerks, even the ones who lost teir employment.

The TWU represents outfits like Triangle, Swissport etc where people doing the same job as you earn minimum wage. Their mechanics earn in the mid twenties. If minimum wage is good enough for them what makes you think that people like Little dont feel that its good enough for you? The fact is that with the high turnover rates and all the part timers the TWU could collect more dues from a minimum wage group than a higher paid group such as yourselves.

The fact is these business unions, the TWU, IAM etc can give all sorts of excuses for failing to support the mechanics at NWA, but no matter what they say the fact is they failed to practice what they preach. They are the ones who you should question as far as being legitimate unions, not AMFA.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

That is a very interesting post, BOB. So now that we have all the problems identified, what can be done about it. You must admit that unionism is losing ground every year with the working class. Their effectiveness in performing their duties is slipping at an accelerated rate. Unions are now probably at the weakest point that they have ever been. Something has got to give before to long. What is the future for these hated unions if things continue on their current trend?

 

[Saabmeister]

That is a very interesting post, BOB. So now that we have all the problems identified, what can be done about it. You must admit that unionism is losing ground every year with the working class. Their effectiveness in performing their duties is slipping at an accelerated rate. Unions are now probably at the weakest point that they have ever been. Something has got to give before to long. What is the future for these hated unions if things continue on their current trend?

What cone be done about it? Hmmmmmmmmm.....Ummmmmmm.... YOU CAN STOP CROSSING PICKET LINES YOU DIRTY SCAB! Yes, Unionism is sadly losing ground, and you aren't helping one bit. And, newsflash, Unions arent hated by everyone, just by dirty S.O.B.'s like yourself. The future is that they are here to stay, but unless they get their act together and start supporting eachother, they will continue to lose power. In the Star Tribune today, the head of the NWA Pilots Union is angry at the management, but don't you think he is just a little bit too late? They act like they didn't see this coming. And today, the BK judge ok'ed paycuts for the ground workers. Scabby DePace complained about how NWA was putting a gun to their head, and he acts like he didn't see this coming, like, oh, I don't know, another union never tried to warn them and get their support?

 

[Kev3188]

In the Star Tribune today, the head of the NWA Pilots Union is angry at the management, but don't you think he is just a little bit too late? They act like they didn't see this coming. And today, the BK judge ok'ed paycuts for the ground workers. Scabby DePace complained about how NWA was putting a gun to their head, and he acts like he didn't see this coming, like, oh, I don't know, another union never tried to warn them and get their support?

Is McClain angry at mgmt., or at himself for continuously doing their dirty work, only to see another paycut for his group?

DePace IMO is a completely worthless "leader," and at the int. level Roach is even worse. The only true fight left in the IAM at NW is at the local level (though I'd be very happy to be proven wrong).

For the AMT strike, we should have bit the proverbial bullet, adopted the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach, and walked out together on principle.

 

[AMFAMAN]

As I have posted before, there is nothing wrong with the aircraft mechanics wanting their own union. The reason why they are seen by some as "elitists" is because of they way they handled their departure from the IAM at NW. If they would have just told the IAM members at NW; "we are going to AMFA because we feel it serves our needs better as aircraft mechanics and we want a craft union like the pilots and F/As," without all of the derogatory remarks attacking the dignity of those who remained in the IAM, then they would not have been seen as elitists and there would have more than likely much more support from those people ( their IAM leadership is a different story however).

AAFSC,

I am curious, do you feel the card drives by the mechanic and related at AA are because they are elitist or because of the lack of representation by the twu?

 

[aafsc]

AAFSC,

I am curious, do you feel the card drives by the mechanic and related at AA are because they are elitist or because of the lack of representation by the twu?

I would say a mixture of both. I would assign 80% of the reason for the card drive is because they are upset with the TWU (structure, unelected officials, craft union vs. industrial, feeling of lack of representation,etc) and 20% because of an elitist attitude (we're superior, they are riding our coattails and keeping us down, etc.). The vote should have been taken a long time ago, in my opinion. The main point of my post was to comment on AMFA's hypocracy with regards to other groups and give my analysis on why their strike failed to shut down NWA.

 

[AMFAMAN]

I would say a mixture of both. I would assign 80% of the reason for the card drive is because they are upset with the TWU (structure, unelected officials, craft union vs. industrial, feeling of lack of representation,etc) and 20% because of an elitist attitude (we're superior, they are riding our coattails and keeping us down, etc.). The vote should have been taken a long time ago, in my opinion. The main point of my post was to comment on AMFA's hypocracy with regards to other groups and give my analysis on why their strike failed to shut down NWA.

I realize your question and appreciate your answer. Many of us have tried hard to make sure the message for changing unions is a clean one and has nothing to do with your workgroup, but there will always be some who have an elitist approach but that goes with all workgroups.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Would it not be better to build your own union from the ground up, other than going from one worthless union to another?

Has a union ever gone bankrupt?