How much better will pilots and mechanics be in a BK court?

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On 4/1/2003 9:05:26 PM AirwAr wrote:

Bob,
Is it a correct statement that your basis for voting no for this TA is that you believe you will a better deal with a judge? If that is true, may I ask on what basis you believe that your situation will be improved in bankruptcy? Do you feel that voting no is a way to get back at management, that you would actually hurt them worse than you''ll hurt yourself?

It is my opinion that in bankruptcy, the debtors-in-possession will use the current TAs as a starting point to wring additional costs from all of us employees. If you believe the news, it is reported to be an additional $500 million. So I really don''t see where you would gain, unless of course you actually work for another airline.



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Yes I feel that I am better off in front of a Judge who can only impose Temporary changes than agree to a six-year term.

I do not wish for Bankruptcy but I am not willing to avoid it at ANY cost. If the cost of avoiding bankruptcy is higher than going in, I''d rather go in. The cost of the agreement means that I will have to leave this industry.

Do I feel that voting No is a way at getting back at management? Thats a dumb question. How will they be hurt? They already made more than they can ever spend. Why would I bother in a futile pointless effort to hurt them. Dont be stupid. I have better things to strive for. I''m just trying not to lose what I''ve got. I''m not trying to gain, just trying to keep and I''m willing to do what is fair and reasonable. Six years, 17.5% and all those other changes are completely unreasonable.

The news, well they report what they are told. There isnt much credability there, the most reliable information you get there is the weather, and thats not saying much. AA can say whatever they want.
 
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On 4/1/2003 10:36:09 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 4/1/2003 10:20:47 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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You two are the only two groups with only the first bytes of information you are telling everyone to vote NO. I have yet to say how I will vote. I plan to read through all the information I can get and make a rational intelligent informed decision.


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Six years from now you will be making less than you are now. How much more info do you need?


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Yea, you are right. But isn''t less than something better than nothing?
 
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On 4/1/2003 10:39:47 PM Bob Owens wrote:
Do you think that if you lose this job you will never find another?


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Thats not the point. I am happy with the one I have.
 
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On 4/1/2003 8:29:51 PM Bob Owens wrote:

The BK Judge can only impose temporary terms. We just got done with a SIX year deal that was not even as bad as this. SIX YEARS is about all the mechanic needs to hear. I work a regular 42.5 hour week. Every week, 5 days a week. After 23 years in the industry I finally get to not have to work nights. But I still work weekends and holidays. I know, you do too. All I expect is to make what someone with similar skills makes such as an electrician, plumber or mechanic. I dont think thats unreasonable. SIX years and massive concessions is unreasonable. I''d rather take my chances in front of the judge. I will vote NO.

FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY

If the worst happens I''ll have to get used to normal hours, holidays and weekends off.

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To Bob and all of the other NO voters....hang in there.....you are not alone, there is a lot of NO voters in the AMT ranks....I think that was the last straw from the TWU on industry leading concessions......
 
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On 4/1/2003 9:36:13 PM AAStew wrote:


I think the APFA website states this agreement is ammendable 4/30/08.
As for the APA being gun shy before a judge, can you blame them?
I was in Miami during those last few years of Eastern and I remember their Unions and the lack of public sympathy for them. What makes anyone think that a judge will be anymore sympathetic towards us? Remember the government is having to bail us out at the moment, this is taxpayer money. Even though it may be substantiated, the court of public opinion counts for much.
Bob, I sympathize with your frustration, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.

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I dont want the Judges sympathy. I expect that he follow the law. Contracts are supposed to be powerful documents. Labor contracts even more so. We have no way of getting out of these agreements but the company does under certain conditions. When the courts do not rule even handedly it promotes lawlessness. The company wants out because they are in a bad way. Ok, But that does not mean that they automatically get to dictate unreasonable terms far into the distant future. With the history of this industry 6 years is an eternity.

Vote NO. 6 years is unreasonable.
 
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We supported you when your union struck AA, now you want to sell us out? OK, have it your way. Remember, what goes around, comes around.

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You supported me. OK, so; I am now indebted to you for life. You were not asked to lay down your job for us. An 11 day strike was going to hurt the company. The 5 days we were out did judt that. But it did not, nor would it have killed the company.

I am not sure how I am selling you out. I asked a question. How will the pilots and mechanics be better off before a BK judge? You two are the only two groups with only the first bytes of information you are telling everyone to vote NO. I have yet to say how I will vote. I plan to read through all the information I can get and make a rational intelligent informed decision.

What goes around, comes around. Great threats and intimidation always work great to bring more people to your side. Good luck, we are all going to need it.
 
DD,
I wish it was that simple. Who will loan you the money to buy a bankrupt airline? Are you prepared to bet your B fund to buy it? BK does not gurantee that Carty and Co get the boot. If you look at our TA in it''s totality it is far better than the UAL deal. Remember the pilots at UAL DO NOT have to go thru the 1113c filing, they were exused yesterday because they negotiated. As for the senior guys selling us out, not quite right either. IF AA folds tommorow they walk with their retirement in full, it''s the junior guys that would get hosed. As one of the attorneys at the APA brief said " Chapter 11 and the inevitable 1133 motion is a hell into which you do not want to descend". All that said this is a tough pill to swallow but we live to fight another day.
 
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On 4/1/2003 10:13:27 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Yes I feel that I am better off in front of a Judge who can only impose Temporary changes than agree to a six-year term.

I do not wish for Bankruptcy but I am not willing to avoid it at ANY cost. If the cost of avoiding bankruptcy is higher than going in, I''d rather go in. The cost of the agreement means that I will have to leave this industry.

Do I feel that voting No is a way at getting back at management? Thats a dumb question. How will they be hurt? They already made more than they can ever spend. Why would I bother in a futile pointless effort to hurt them. Dont be stupid. I have better things to strive for. I''m just trying not to lose what I''ve got. I''m not trying to gain, just trying to keep and I''m willing to do what is fair and reasonable. Six years, 17.5% and all those other changes are completely unreasonable.

The news, well they report what they are told. There isnt much credability there, the most reliable information you get there is the weather, and thats not saying much. AA can say whatever they want.


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If the BK judge gets a 1113 filing by AA, and I am sure the judge will. The abrogation of your contract is real and permanent. So how is that better for you?
 
The lastest rumor, I REPEAT RUMOR, is that Carl Icahn is about to make a deal to buy AA, change the name to TWA, and offer all employees a job with a 10 percent reduction from TWA''s last contract. If you do not like that, then hit the street. REMEMBER NOW, THIS IS JUST A RUMOR.
 
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On 4/1/2003 10:20:47 PM FA Mikey wrote:


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What goes around, comes around. Great threats and intimidation always work great to bring more people to your side. Good luck, we are all going to need it.

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That was not a THREAT! It is a known fact of life to anyone over 25 years of age.
 
Well if thats the case and you want to do it for nothing, fine. As I said you can give for me, and have my equity and profit sharing. for me its "Full Pay Till The Last Day".
16000 mechanics making the same as SWA is not going to bankrupt the company. I''m confident that my work rules pay and benifits are competative. I make the same as my counterpart at SWA,he is qualified on one A/C type, I''m qualified on 7. Tell me how do you compare? Do you make more or less? After concessions, will you make more or less? By how much?


I saw the letter going out from the APFA leadership. Why are they doing the company''s job like the TWU. "Oh this is what they would ask for in BK" Who cares what they say they will ask for. Ask yourself these questions;

Do you feel that your compensation is unreasonbly onnerous on the company?

If you owned the company would you honestly feel the same way assuming of course that your knowledge of the job is taken into considereation?

Do you completely trust the company?

Is there a chance that the proposal that they say they will ask for is a threat to influence your vote?

When you look at the companys threat does it appear unreasonable?

Is it likely that your representative could convincingly make that arguement to the judge?

Are you aware that the Judge also takes into consideration the likelyhood of a strike in making his decision and that all you have to do is show that the company''s requests are unreasonable and unacceptable and that you will strike if it is abrogated?

Are you aware that the process could take months before it progresses to the point of possible abrogation and that by then Iraq could be over and we will be in peak season?

Are you aware that the company says they are losing $5million/day, that comes to $1.825 billion? That means that in reality the company has done nothing and we are being told to absorb all the loss through our wages while the company continues to give away tickets. They could raise ticket prices tomorrow and make massive profits for the next six years while you are stuck with this crap for SIX YEARS?

Why would you trust any of the threats that the company makes? Didnt they say that they would fire "all the cun+$ and fags" if you went on strike back in 93?

They can say they are going to ask for whatever they want. However if they go too extreme it could backfire on them in court as the Judge may look at the company as being completely unreasonable, and theis behavior could be interpreted as the reason why the company finds itself in bankruptcy and not the employees contracts. I dont know about you but we have repeatedly given AA a competative adavantage over the last twenty years. USAIR still does not have some of the concessionary language that AA has even after exiting bankruptcy.

Use your head,if you vote yes, in SIX years the only reminder of the current crisis will be your diminished paycheck and the memory of a better life.You will either curse your poor judgement or make excuses like "I did not know that they would recover so quickly and by so much".
 
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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Well if thats the case and you want to do it for nothing, fine. As I said you can give for me, and have my equity and profit sharing. for me its "Full Pay Till The Last Day".
16000 mechanics making the same as SWA is not going to bankrupt the company. I''m confident that my work rules pay and benifits are competative. I make the same as my counterpart at SWA,he is qualified on one A/C type, I''m qualified on 7. Tell me how do you compare? Do you make more or less? After concessions, will you make more or less? By how much?



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No, Bob I am not going to your job or taking your cut. I love the SWA comparison. Since Southwest farms out its overhaulwork. Do you feel that''s OK for AA? Can they keep full pay for the few line station mechanics they would keep and layoff the rest? Is that better for your work group and profession?

Sixteen thousand mechanics making the same as SWA will not BK the company, but 100,000 employees all still making the same will. Its an all or nothing deal. Its shared sacrifice. I really couldn''t care less that you have taken concessionary contracts for the last 20 years. If what you speak is a true reflection of the membership. Its too bad it took you guys this long to grow some balls. This is the worst time to make this stand.

What can say in defense of the people I work and fly with is they have the brains to know when where and how to pick a fight. We stood up to AA and Crandall when times were good. AA making money. The company fought the arbitration and presented to the board comparisons of us to SWA, TWA and AWA. While we argued that UAL, U, and DAL were a better reflection of industry standard.

You only use SWA for comparison, why? Is it because that the industry standard full service, hub and spoke carriers are all taking or about to be taking cuts. But the few point to point, and new low cost carriers are farming all there work our to line station FBO''s, with overhaul check''s done in other countries.
 
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On 4/2/2003 8:31:55 AM FA Mikey wrote:

UAL is asking that the judge completely remove there CBA''s.

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Actually Mikey that is not true. UA has petitioned the court to change our Agreement and impose certain terms-- not to throw the whole thing out and start over from scratch. In fact the terms UA wants the judge to impose on us look about like what the AA F/A TA looks like.

I agree with you though that Bob Owens is totally out of touch with the realities of BK. He is getting bad info from somewhere. "I''ll take my chances with the judge"-- ha-- that''s what the IAM here at UA said, and they took their chances right into a court-imposed 14% pay cut in January. No doubt with more to come. Companies get what they want, and unions lose, in BK. It may be unfair, but it''s reality.
 
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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

When you look at the companys threat does it appear unreasonable?

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No, it doesn''t. I don''t like it. I do understand the state of the industry and economy. There are necessary evils. This seems to be one I will have to take for a while.