How much better will pilots and mechanics be in a BK court?

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Ask yourself these questions;


Do you completely trust the company?

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No never have. But I do trust my eyes and ears. The industry is dying. Changes will have to be made. APFA hired an industry analyst to research the AA books. Conclusion, We need help now.

 

[WXGuesser]

Anyone who thinks that the judge''s cuts will be temporary is fooling themselves. Six years is a lot shorter than permanent.

The T/A''s will pass. There are too many senior folks whose pensions aren''t being touched (and will retire) and too many youngsters who realize that the job market for everyone out in the rest of the world SUCKS and that even this cut is a heck of a lot better than what is out there.

Before you vote on your agreements, take a look in your local paper. Go to job sites like Monster and Yahoo Hotjobs and look for jobs which your skill set qualifies you for. Take a look at what those jobs offer in pay and benefits compared to what you will be making after these cuts.

Then vote what is best for you. And don''t let anyone''s fearmongering (Company or Union) sway you one way or another.

My vote is YES.

TANSTAAFL

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

I saw the letter going out from the APFA leadership. Why are they doing the company''s job like the TWU. "Oh this is what they would ask for in BK" Who cares what they say they will ask for. Ask yourself these questions;
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FAMikey says: APFA''s job was to negotiate a cost savings deal with AA, that reflects true savings and would insure the companys survival and protect our jobs. The work on and agreed to the deal. Its as much there job as AA''s to sell it to the membership.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Ask yourself these questions;

Do you feel that your compensation is unreasonbly onnerous on the company?
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In the company and industry''s present situation. Given the economy is where it is. 100,000 of us at the same pay we were at when we were making a billion dollar profit. Is onerous. And only a fool can think a BK judge will treat them better than what the terms unions have presented.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Are you aware that the Judge also takes into consideration the likelyhood of a strike in making his decision and that all you have to do is show that the company''s requests are unreasonable and unacceptable and that you will strike if it is abrogated?

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Do you really believe that is much of a threat. The TWU is going to strike. If the President doesn''t step in you will see the ones who show up for work doing work around the system and the overhaul and checks will be done by outside vendors. How long to replace the FSC group if they walked with you?

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:
Why would you trust any of the threats that the company makes? Didnt they say that they would fire "all the cun+$ and fags" if you went on strike back in 93?


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Nice language, you kiss your mother with that mouth? Crandall made many threats. We were on a legal strike so there was no actual way he could. We all knew it.

I trust the threat of BK to be real and will happen if any group fail to join in. If you want to test them do and see. rest assured they have a prepackaged and fast track deal worked out. You will see your pay and job and CBA disappear quite fast.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Ask yourself these questions
If you owned the company would you honestly feel the same way assuming of course that your knowledge of the job is taken into considereation?
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Absolutely, our very survival requires some shared sacrifice. Its no illusion UAL is in BK court. UAL is asking that the judge completely remove there CBA's.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Ask yourself these questions;



Is there a chance that the proposal that they say they will ask for is a threat to influence your vote?


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I have worked here for 17 years. I know in BK court AA will go for the jular. They destroy every last shread of on the job quality of life.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Are you aware that the company says they are losing $5million/day, that comes to $1.825 billion? That means that in reality the company has done nothing and we are being told to absorb all the loss through our wages while the company continues to give away tickets. They could raise ticket prices tomorrow and make massive profits for the next six years while you are stuck with this crap for SIX YEARS?

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Why are you on the line? You should be CEO! Why has no one else thought or realized that? OMG. I think the 5 million a day was prior to the war. Even if its the same, we will run out of credit and cash before AA see''s a positive cash flow. As for massive profits. Well, we are going to need them. We have billions in losses to pay back as well, as some under funded pensions to take care of.

 

[Diesel8]

It appears to me, based on the U Ch.11, that the DIP could very well pull a Bronner. That is, repeatedly put a gun to your head, threatening to pull financing, untill his terms (pure greed) was met. At least you have an opportunity to have some control over your fate.

Not involved in either fight, but as naive as it may be, I certainly believe, that Siegel is much more interested in the people at U, than Bronner, who is only interested in money.

Carty is no magician and while he may have made some serious mistakes along the way, I beleieve he wishes the best for AA and it employees. Other than a bruised ego, he could just resign and live happily with his money, he has not done so.

Even everyones "favorite" airline CEO, Gordo, is seeing losses.

Just my two cents.
D8

 

[AAStew]

Mike,
As they say in Family Feud "Good Answer". Personally I think Bob is just blowing off some hot air (Sorry Bob), but the majority of people realize times are tough. I think biting off your nose to spite your face is not the answer for us.
From what I have read most of the contracts stink, but if the mechanics have been giving true concessions for the past twenty years, now is not the time to stand up and fight. You should of done it in the late 80''s early 90''s.....
As for me and most that I have spoken too, I will vote for passing this t/a if the major points are the worst of it.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Is it likely that your representative could convincingly make that arguement to the judge?

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No, neither can yours. The judge also has to hear from the creditor committees. The judge will have the same information of reps saw when they went through the books. We are in an unsustainable situation. It wont matter what SWA makes, if making the same at AA means not surviving.

What are you going to tell the judge bob? If the court would force AA to raise its fares. We could all be paid better.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:

Are you aware that the process could take months before it progresses to the point of possible abrogation and that by then Iraq could be over and we will be in peak season?


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Well, there you go. I am sure AA wont be smart enough to have a prepackaged deal set to go. And even if they were slacking off and let it ride. What do you get bob 3 more months at full pay before your CBA is thrown out and all the maintenance work is farmed out as well?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 4/2/2003 805 AM Bear96 wrote:

<
Actually Mikey that is not true. UA has petitioned the court to change our Agreement and impose certain terms-- not to throw the whole thing out and start over from scratch. In fact the terms UA wants the judge to impose on us look about like what the AA F/A TA looks like.

I agree with you though that Bob Owens is totally out of touch with the realities of BK. He is getting bad info from somewhere. "I''ll take my chances with the judge"-- ha-- that''s what the IAM here at UA said, and they took their chances right into a court-imposed 14% pay cut in January. No doubt with more to come. Companies get what they want, and unions lose, in BK. It may be unfair, but it''s reality.

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Who is out of touch? Which is worse a temporary 14% cut or 17.5% with massive concessions FOR SIX YEARS!. You admit that UAL is only asking the Judge to impose what the APFA is proposing their members accept. They have been in BK for 5 months. So that should be considered rock bottom.
What are they asking from their mechanics? Its likely that a lot of what UAL is asking for WE ALREADY GAVE. Our average cost per mechanic is the lowest in the industry once years of service and OSMs are factored in. What excuse other than the fact that they want it is AA going to use to convince the Judge to abrogate the contract? If you look at the Carey and Typesetters cases that our unions are pushing at us they are completely different, Careys costs were 60% above industry average and the Typesetters wanted to protect archaic rules that basically protected workers with skills that were no longer useful and resisted retraining. Neither of those factors are present here. If this was so automatic then how come, after 5 months the judge has still not abrogated UALs contracts in their entirety?

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/2/2003 6:16:43 AM Bob Owens wrote:
They can say they are going to ask for whatever they want. However if they go too extreme it could backfire on them in court as the Judge may look at the company as being completely unreasonable, and theis behavior could be interpreted as the reason why the company finds itself in bankruptcy and not the employees contracts. I dont know about you but we have repeatedly given AA a competative adavantage over the last twenty years. USAIR still does not have some of the concessionary language that AA has even after exiting bankruptcy.

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Well, bob May I suggest you seek employment at USAIR. This is not the time, place or economy to make your stand. I really dont see how losing millions of dollars a day, needing concessions, negotiating in good faith to starve of BK, only to have it rejected by the employees. That a judge look unfavorably on AA''s request for abrogation of your CBA and the right then to layoff and farm out much of your work.
Turn this down and the judge wont see AA as the uncompromising it will see its mechanics and offer the company the relief it seeks.