How much better will pilots and mechanics be in a BK court?

FA Mikey

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Aug 19, 2002
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Bob wanting to make what someone else makes is not unreasonable, its envious. These are not reasonable times. Drastic measure''s and actions are needed to get us through this time. This is an airline and things like nights weekends and holidays are for those of us who didn''t start in the late 60''s with AA.

Remember a BK judge can also permanently wipe out your CBA. Then you have a union and you start with and from nothing. There has got to be a better way.
 

dogdriver

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Aug 21, 2002
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Mike,
I don''t see how it could be much worse. Look at UAL. They were worse off than us, went through BK and they are still paying their pilots more than we will get under this new deal. I think the APA is a little gun shy when it comes to our wonderful legal system. Unlike the FA union, they sold out our junior guys during the TWA debacle so they could avoid a judge. Now they seem to be doing it again. I would rather take my chances with the judge and an ESOP. If we are going to have to take massive pay-cuts, at least we should wind up owning the place and getting rid of Carty and his den of thieves.
 

FWAAA

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Jan 5, 2003
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On 4/1/2003 8:11:58 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Are your only hopes for better pay and working conditions going to be before a bankruptcy judge?

I just dont see how BK offers a better situation for any of us. AA can use it to drop A/C leases, and down size further. Use the 1113 filing to close your contract. How will that be better?

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Exactly. Either agree to cut your pay or watch a bankruptcy court do it for you. And you''re right about it being a worse process than voluntary concessions.

But lots of people get off on chanting "Full Pay to the Last Day." Too bad for their families and children.
 
OP
F

FA Mikey

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Aug 19, 2002
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Are your only hopes for better pay and working conditions going to be before a bankruptcy judge?

I just dont see how BK offers a better situation for any of us. AA can use it to drop A/C leases, and down size further. Use the 1113 filing to close your contract. How will that be better?
 

AirwAr

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Aug 21, 2002
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On 4/1/2003 8:29:51 PM Bob Owens wrote:

The BK Judge can only impose temporary terms. We just got done with a SIX year deal that was not even as bad as this. SIX YEARS is about all the mechanic needs to hear. I work a regular 42.5 hour week. Every week, 5 days a week. After 23 years in the industry I finally get to not have to work nights. But I still work weekends and holidays. I know, you do too. All I expect is to make what someone with similar skills makes such as an electrician, plumber or mechanic. I dont think thats unreasonable. SIX years and massive concessions is unreasonable. I''d rather take my chances in front of the judge. I will vote NO.

FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY

If the worst happens I''ll have to get used to normal hours, holidays and weekends off.

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Bob,
Is it a correct statement that your basis for voting no for this TA is that you believe you will a better deal with a judge? If that is true, may I ask on what basis you believe that your situation will be improved in bankruptcy? Do you feel that voting no is a way to get back at management, that you would actually hurt them worse than you''ll hurt yourself?

It is my opinion that in bankruptcy, the debtors-in-possession will use the current TAs as a starting point to wring additional costs from all of us employees. If you believe the news, it is reported to be an additional $500 million. So I really don''t see where you would gain, unless of course you actually work for another airline.
 

Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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The BK Judge can only impose temporary terms. We just got done with a SIX year deal that was not even as bad as this. SIX YEARS is about all the mechanic needs to hear. I work a regular 42.5 hour week. Every week, 5 days a week. After 23 years in the industry I finally get to not have to work nights. But I still work weekends and holidays. I know, you do too. All I expect is to make what someone with similar skills makes such as an electrician, plumber or mechanic. I dont think thats unreasonable. SIX years and massive concessions is unreasonable. I'd rather take my chances in front of the judge. I will vote NO.

FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY

If the worst happens I'll have to get used to normal hours, holidays and weekends off.
 

FWAAA

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
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Like I said - you''ve got two choices.

1. Get paid less, and maybe stay out of bankruptcy; or

2. Get paid even less, and gamble that the airline even survives chapter 11.

Some of the posts here sound like people think there is some magical third choice.
 

boresight

Member
Feb 24, 2003
19
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It is insulting that the Mechanic and Related group is once again having to wear the long coat tails and provide other TWU represented work groups a free ride. Our responsibilities (and indeed concerns) do not end at the end of our shift, we are the ONLY work group who can make this statement.

For both the union and the company to slap us in the face with wage reductions that are equal to other work groups, whose level of responsibility and accountability to the public is greatly lower is completely unacceptable.

Additionally, most feel that regardless of what happens on the T/A vote that the company will still file bankruptcy. There is a genuine belief that management lies; but only because they have been caught lying to the different work groups repeatedly. They can come and take my pay, but I will not give it up only for them to come and take more.

What we do not see is any SERIOUS top end leadership. In the wake of all the corporate scandals of the past two years and given AA''s financial crunch and downturn in business and leisure travel, I believe that it is imperative that the 6 corp. officers, 12 Senior VP''s and 32 VP''s should sacrifice more than just not taking bonuses. Pathetic leadership breads contempt!

Let us go and see the man in the robe!
 

AAStew

Veteran
Feb 24, 2003
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I think the APFA website states this agreement is ammendable 4/30/08.
As for the APA being gun shy before a judge, can you blame them?
I was in Miami during those last few years of Eastern and I remember their Unions and the lack of public sympathy for them. What makes anyone think that a judge will be anymore sympathetic towards us? Remember the government is having to bail us out at the moment, this is taxpayer money. Even though it may be substantiated, the court of public opinion counts for much.
Bob, I sympathize with your frustration, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet.
 

AirwAr

Senior
Aug 21, 2002
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On 4/1/2003 9:22:21 PM boresight wrote:

...
What we do not see is any SERIOUS top end leadership. In the wake of all the corporate scandals of the past two years and given AA''s financial crunch and downturn in business and leisure travel, I believe that it is imperative that the 6 corp. officers, 12 Senior VP''s and 32 VP''s should sacrifice more than just not taking bonuses. Pathetic leadership breads contempt!



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"company announced that Carty will take a 33 percent base pay cut; decline a bonus for the third consecutive year; and will ask the AMR Board of Directors to make further changes that significantly reduce the value of his and his senior officers’ compensation packages."

http://www.amrcorp.com/news/march03/31_consensual.htm

Face it, there is nothing that Carty could do that would make you feel like he did enough. He could agree to donate his salary to you & your family for the next 3 years, clean your house once a week, and be your personal driver, and you would be pissed because he didn''t kneel down and clean your boots with his tongue.

Worry about what you can control. You have a choice. Vote Yes: give now and hope that we can make it through. Vote No: allow a judge and DIP to determine how much you need to give up. It''s as simple as that.
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/1/2003 8:45:04 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Bob wanting to make what someone else makes is not unreasonable, its envious. These are not reasonable times. Drastic measure''s and actions are needed to get us through this time. This is an airline and things like nights weekends and holidays are for those of us who didn''t start in the late 60''s with AA.
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And what makes you convinced that it requirs 6 years of concessions to "get us through this time"?

We supported you when your union struck AA, now you want to sell us out? OK, have it your way. Remember, what goes around, comes around.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
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On 4/1/2003 9:38:10 PM FWAAA wrote:

Like I said - you''ve got two choices.

1. Get paid less, and maybe stay out of bankruptcy; or

2. Get paid even less, and gamble that the airline even survives chapter 11.

Some of the posts here sound like people think there is some magical third choice.

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And some believe that they make the rules and know every possibility.
 

MiAAmi

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Aug 21, 2002
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As an APFA member I can not believe that they want us to agree to a 6 year contract. I''ll take the cut but I am having a real problem with it being a six year contract. Carty needs to give it up too for six years! I''m not sure I can vote yes for this yet.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
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On 4/1/2003 8:45:04 PM FA Mikey wrote:

Bob wanting to make what someone else makes is not unreasonable, its envious. These are not reasonable times. Drastic measure''s and actions are needed to get us through this time. This is an airline and things like nights weekends and holidays are for those of us who didn''t start in the late 60''s with AA.

Remember a BK judge can also permanently wipe out your CBA. Then you have a union and you start with and from nothing. There has got to be a better way.

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Envious, no, just comparing, thats what the company does.

Six years. Six years. Do you know how much can happen in 6 years? To agree to anything under ''drastic" conditions is just plain stupid.

I''ll take my chances, you take yours. If you want you can give for me and have my equity stake and profit sharing. I dont mind. But I''m keeping what I''ve got "till the last day".

I''m confident that my work rules pay and benifits are competative. I make the same as my counterpart at SWA,he is qualified on one A/C type, I''m qualified on 7. Tell me how do you compare? Do you make more or less? After concessions, will you make more or less? By how much?

My Vote is NO.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
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On 4/1/2003 10:20:47 PM FA Mikey wrote:

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You two are the only two groups with only the first bytes of information you are telling everyone to vote NO. I have yet to say how I will vote. I plan to read through all the information I can get and make a rational intelligent informed decision.


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I really dont care how you vote. I dont know how you compare to other F/As or what is in your TA.
Six years from now we will be making less than we are now. How much more info do you need to understand our position?