How much is enough money to make seniority woes fade?

Yes numberswise they do, but now you have to see will they all sign cards, will they all vote and whom would they vote for.

With the numbers that close, it would be a toss up on what would happen.

More than likely you would see a decertification and end up with no union and no cba and being an employee at will.

Well, I already placed that disclaimer with my original post. You wanted numbers, so I gave them to you all the while saying it is theoretical and mathematically possible.

You maintained that the east could not impose their will on the west. I proved that statement untrue mathematically. Though the scenario is unlikely.
 
The real, and unavoidable, risk is that trying to "impose" a different union on the West would result in neither union getting the required 50%+1 votes. Then you're without a union, subject to whatever the company desires.

If I'm not mistaken the 50%+1 applies to eligible voters, not votes cast. Assuming the number mentioned - about 4800 - are eligible, 2401 votes would be needed to declare one of the competing unions a winner. If you assume a 60/40 split on the votes, over 4000 would have to vote in order to maintain union representation - a participation rate of over 84%.

It'll be interesting to see how many show up in Herndon for the "rally". Assuming 50% of East's active pilots are working, anything less than 1200 or so will give an indication that trying to force a change of representation is an empty threat (or very foolish to attempt).

Jim
 
If that happens, it's almost assured that the company will put legal pressure on the East group to negotiate in good faith. ALPA national has to defend the award--ergo, it's not entirely out of the realm that they'd put the East MEC into receivership over the issue. If you think Prater is going to crater or hurt ALPA on East's behalf because DOH did not happen, I have a bridge I'll sell you on favorable terms.


Would have been much funnier if you had offered to sell them a fence, lol
 
The real, and unavoidable, risk is that trying to "impose" a different union on the West would result in neither union getting the required 50%+1 votes. Then you're without a union, subject to whatever the company desires.

If I'm not mistaken the 50%+1 applies to eligible voters, not votes cast.
This is the real risk in following USA320's plan of action. There is a very real possibility that the LCC pilots will emerge at the other side with NO union representation at all. Contrary to what USA320pilot appears to be implying, this doesn't mean that management is powerless to make any changes and will have to live with the status quo indefinitely. Rather, it means management will be free to implement anything it wants to to make things move forward in management's image of how LCC ought to be. The East pilots will have to decide which is scarier -- management's vision of the way things ought to be, or the East MEC's vision (assuming it is being accurately represented by USA320pilot).

Either USA320pilot truly doesn't understand this, or is being disingenuous about ignoring it in an attempt to muddy the waters and imply "resistance is futile" for the West pilots (a common tactic of his over the years when things aren't going his way).

All LCC pilots should hope the rest of the East MEC isn't as misguided or deceitful as USA320pilot.
 
The real, and unavoidable, risk is that trying to "impose" a different union on the West would result in neither union getting the required 50%+1 votes. Then you're without a union, subject to whatever the company desires.

If I'm not mistaken the 50%+1 applies to eligible voters, not votes cast. Assuming the number mentioned - about 4800 - are eligible, 2401 votes would be needed to declare one of the competing unions a winner. If you assume a 60/40 split on the votes, over 4000 would have to vote in order to maintain union representation - a participation rate of over 84%.

It'll be interesting to see how many show up in Herndon for the "rally". Assuming 50% of East's active pilots are working, anything less than 1200 or so will give an indication that trying to force a change of representation is an empty threat (or very foolish to attempt).

Jim

I don't think the process works quite like that. If 50%+1 votes are cast from the entire eligible voter pool, "A union" is certified. IOW, 50%+1 want representation and as long as that number of ballots are turned in, representation will happen. A ballot cast is a ballot FOR a union; it is a representational election ONLY. Which union is certified is decided then by the majority of those ballots cast(or another election to choose a union is held, I cannot remember which.)

But I'm fairly certain your scenario is incorrect.

The NMB website is down, or at least I can't access it right now, otherwise we could likely pin this whole thing down.
 
Bus,

You are confusing the election process.

It is differant when the group is all ready represented by a union.

What you speak of is when a group is not organized.
 
Concessions from what?
Sorry if you misunderstood my post. USA320Pilot wants the Westies to "negotiate" from the Nicolau Award to appease the Easties so they won't burn down the house. Since the Nicolau Award is already binding any "negotiations" with the East would be concessionary on our part.
What "concessions" hast the rooties given?
What's a "rootie"?
Had the arbitrator bothered to investigate, he would have seen the gross inequity in pilot contracts, allowing the easties to operate with 620 less pilots than the rooties that was never figured in to his "calculus".
He didn't have to investigate. The AAA Merger Committee told him all he needed to know. Didn't they?
I feel much of this came from the anti-labor dudes like Glass, aided and abetted by the naive among us.
Nothing like a good conspiracy theory to explain that which you do not understand.
Kill it now while the 50 year olds can get another job.

Sorry.
I highly doubt you're actually sorry.
 
Sorry if you misunderstood my post. USA320Pilot wants the Westies to "negotiate" from the Nicolau Award to appease the Easties so they won't burn down the house. Since the Nicolau Award is already binding any "negotiations" with the East would be concessionary on our part.

I believe USA320Pilot, not my favorite person at all, does not want any negotiation, at all. I believe he wants an "award" that is legal.

An award splitting the baby is hardly appropriate that does not take into account contractual disparaties that result in severe staffing differences.

What's a "rootie"?

America West = A&W = root beer = rootie. Your own pilots called yourselves that in the early 90s.

He didn't have to investigate. The AAA Merger Committee told him all he needed to know. Didn't they?

I don't know. Were you there? If they had, that, all by itself, should invalidate the "award".

Nothing like a good conspiracy theory to explain that which you do not understand.

Something caused such an inequitable "award". I am just trying to find something we can fight together on rather than toss cocktails at each other.

I highly doubt you're actually sorry.

I would be sorry to help bring down a corporation that is mainly composed of good people, just because of a few, um, donkeys.

I would be extremely happy to see you in a job where your talents could really be shown off, like performing down at the local skid row theatre. For your info, I hear there is a 4 pm slot at speakers corner in Hyde Park reserved for drunks. Bet you'd be a shoo-in.
 
Bus,

You are confusing the election process.

It is differant when the group is all ready represented by a union.

What you speak of is when a group is not organized.

I don't think I'm confusing the process, although the NMB website is still down so there is not a definitive answer.

An failed election to change unions would not automatically decertify the union on the property as long as 50%+1 ballots were cast from the eligible pool.

Again, any valid ballot received in an election is considered a "YES" to a union and is not assigned to a particular "candidate" union. It just means the membership wants to unionize, or remain so.

If 50%+1 of the eligible pilots tears up and trashes the ballot they receive for the election, that would mean a non-union shop. That is unlikely, but not beyond the realm of possibility.
 
I would be extremely happy to see you in a job where your talents could really be shown off, like performing down at the local skid row theatre. For your info, I hear there is a 4 pm slot at speakers corner in Hyde Park reserved for drunks. Bet you'd be a shoo-in.
Sweet. Another insulting comment by ussnark. I bet you don't moonlight as a greeting card writer for Hallmark.

"Rootie" signing out......