How much is enough money to make seniority woes fade?

[b737fo]

What? Who wanted no part in negotiations and mediation?
So, you cannot evaluate a position, because, you say, you are afraid? You are put off by tactics?

You have in your mind some victorian vision of how a negotiation is done and you ignore everything unless your rules are followed? Are you seven years old, yet?

No not yet. Just borrowing my dad's sign in.

As to your first paragraph when the arbitrator gave us one last opportunity to find common ground before he and the two neutrals rendered their decision, the MCs got nowhere and no compromise was ever proposed. That is why I say there was no interest in negotiations or mediation. At least the JNC and the company pass proposals back and forth.

I just reread my post and I am confused as to where you think that I am afraid. I cannot evaluate a position because I don't have all of the facts of what "fences" would entail. I certainly wouldn't make a decision without seeing a full proposal.

I don't put myself on some superior high moral ground but I am not going to bow down to the threats to my union or to the threats to kill my job off made by some who happen to be brothers and sisters organized under the same labor union. It doesn't take "Victorian vision" to stand up for myself. And by the way the rules aren't mine but the agreed upon rules that were in the TA signed by both MECs.

Time to get back to my multiplication homework before dad sees I am logged in again.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Are you seven years old, yet?

That same question could be applied to many back east who can't seem to come to terms with what the neutral party decided just because it doesn't mirror their own thoughts.
Some folks are stomping there feet much like a true seven year old.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Character flaw.

We PI pilots took our lumps, sucked it up, and got on with life. We fought the good fight, lost, and accepted it.

What I see posted here - whining and crying about how somebody has to pay because someone didn't get their way. Talk of lawsuits, "imposing" things on the other side, burning the place down, demonstrations, etc. "Waa - you better give me what I want or else."

So tell me - who has the character flaw? Do you consider agreeing to binding arbitration then refusing to accept the outcome if you don't like it a sign of good character? Is it a character flaw to stand by your word and accept the outcome?

Jim

 

[Hawkhunter]

So tell me - who has the character flaw? Do you consider agreeing to binding arbitration then refusing to accept the outcome if you don't like it a sign of good character? Is it a character flaw to stand by your word and accept the outcome?

Jim
[/quote]

I didnt expect DOH. I figured I would end up with about half of my seniority. So instead of 10 years I end up with 3 years. Binding arbitration is fine if it followed the ALPA merger policy. The westies idea of trying to work something out would of put me behind "Save Dave". So I guess I ended up with a windfall since I am a couple hundred senior to "Save Dave". So tell me how someone with 3 years should be senior than someone with 21 years?
Why are the boys out west not complaining at all about the list and the easties are screaming? Could it be that one group got a windfall and the other group got screwed? I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you but you retired a Captain maybe we would like to as well. No matter what would of happened the AWA pilots would of owned this airline in 10 years. Now they are going to own it much sooner at our expense.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

Jim's not ridiculing; he's just calling a spade a spade.

He's the only USAir pilot on this board with an ounce of sense and decency about him. It's ashamed he's retired.

Cetainly, something must be done to rectify west vs east's issues into some form of mutually palatable dish. My first notion's the fences..but am additionally open to any/all suggestions so as to clean up what's a poisonous situation for us all.

A poisonous situation for us all?? YGTBSM. What did the poor AWA employee have to do with your union leaders and PHL pilots insistance of trying to get something that most sane and rational people knew wasn't attainable? Especially when you were trying to get it at the expense of the pilot who chose work for AmWest?? I think the only "fence" you will see is the one that you have in your back yard at home. To think they let you fly people around for a living.Amazing.... <_< I'm flying on you guys to IND next week. Hope you're not assigned to my flight.

 

[autofixer]

You should hope it is an East cockpit crew with a combined minimum experience level at THIS airline of 46 years, versus a minimum of 9 years combined experience out West. Do you maybe see something in the details?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I didnt expect DOH. I figured I would end up with about half of my seniority. So instead of 10 years I end up with 3 years.

To be blunt, just how much seniority was your 20 years worth? Senior F/O? Mid-level F/O? Bottom of the barrel F/O? Furloughed?

How much seniority was a West pilot's 3 years worth? Senior F/O? Mid-level F/O? Bottom of the barrel F/O? Furloughed?

Longevity ceased being a measure of seniority across airlines a long time ago. Gone are the days when 20 years at one airline would get you about the same seniority as another pilot's 20 years at another airline.

It's sorta like money - I remember when the dollar and British pound were at parity - $1 = 1GBP. I could go to the UK and spend the same amount of dollars for an item as a Brit would spend pounds.

Now I go to the UK and it takes twice as many of my dollars to buy something as the Brit's pounds. Is the Brit getting a windfall at my expense? Of course not - the difference is due to factors that neither the Brit nor I have any control over.

Same with longevity - 20 years at US gives you about the same "buying power" - seniority - as 3 years gets your peer at HP.

Of course, I can understand that it would be nice to take that 20 years and claim the position you would have had if you had been at HP all that time. Pretty senior 737 Captain? Maybe junior 757 Captain? Now that would be a windfall - from zero to hero just because of a merger.

Jim

 

[autofixer]

Hence...the pilot profession is a pile of crap because of rationalization like this. My dad must be rolling over in his hard core union grave.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're every bit as entitled to your opinion as anyone else, autofixer. Conveniently enough, you're also in a pilot group - US East - where standing by that opinion can never be a detriment to your career - at least in any foreseeable merger.

Jim

 

[ClueByFour]

You should hope it is an East cockpit crew with a combined minimum experience level at THIS airline of 46 years, versus a minimum of 9 years combined experience out West. Do you maybe see something in the details?

What exactly is the implication?

It's either more harping on the award (ignoring the concept of relative seniority and/or conditions at the merger point)

or

That somehow the 46 years make for superior pilots. I don't think you really wanted to imply the latter, since a glance at the NTSB dockets of old don't bear a pretty picture for East.

 

[autofixer]

What exactly is the implication?

It's either more harping on the award (ignoring the concept of relative seniority and/or conditions at the merger point)

or

That somehow the 46 years make for superior pilots. I don't think you really wanted to imply the latter, since a glance at the NTSB dockets of old don't bear a pretty picture for East.

And that was 15 years ago...so subtract 30 years experience and you get what? Humm, about the experience level of West. And what was just finished about 15 years ago? Humm, a botched merger. I hope like heck that history does not repeat itself!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Maybe the seniority list should be based on total flying hours - put the more experienced pilots at the top where they'd be Captains.

Or there's mention of the "kids in the sandbox" - do it by age. Put the oldest at the top. I'm sure quite a few East pilots would vote for that to keep from retiring while furloughed or F/O like many others have.

Maybe some research needs to be done - could birth month, astrological sign, or first letter of last name have a correlation with accident/incident rates? One of those might be an even better was to arrange the list....

Jim

 

[b737fo]

I WILL NOT FLY WITH HP CAPTAINS WITH AN ACTUAL HIRE DATE UNDER JULY 1987!!!

Ok. Don't forget to enter them on your no fly list if we ever become one pilot group.

 

[USA320Pilot]

The answer to the seniority list integration problem is negotiated fences by the two parties. For example, if my memory serves me correctly in the Northwest - Republic merger the award was for DOH with 20-year widebody fences.

To make a huge problem go away if a 20-year fence was negotiated where the East pilots could not bid West bases and West pilots could not bid East bases, there was shared future growth (A340's, EMB-190s, etc. wiht shared scope protection (minimum block hours, minimum captain positions, furlough protections, etc.) you could preserve pre-merger career expectations, prevent windfalls, and permit a complete pilot group integration.

Morever, it is fair and could keep the Nicolau Award in place without draconian actions such as the decertificaiton of ALPA on both the US Airways and America West properties, no new union like the Teamsters taking control, no imposition, and a resumption of JNC CBA talks.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ClueByFour]

The answer to the seniority list integration problem is negotiated fences by the two parties. For example, if my memory serves me correctly in the Northwest - Republic merger the award was for DOH with 20-year widebody fences.

Shame your MEC did not suggest it or fight harder for it during the actual arbitration, huh?

Morever, it is fair and could keep the Nicolau Award in place without draconian actions such as the decertificaiton of ALPA on both the US Airways and America West properties, no new union like the Teamsters taking control, no imposition, and a resumption of JNC CBA talks.

Unfortunately, none of that (with the exception of East decertification) can actually happen, regardless of how many times you post it.