A320 Driver
Veteran
He's the only USAir pilot on this board with an ounce of sense and decency about him. It's ashamed he's retired.
I'm hurt.
A320 Driver
How much is enough money to make seniority woes fade?
- Thread starter Phoenix
- Start date
I think most all of the east pilot posters here have a sense of decency about them. Even going back and forth with different opinions I have spotted decency showing through, I have no doubt its there.
To be sure opinions are different, but that is to be expected in the "unique" circumstance we all find ourselves.
To be sure opinions are different, but that is to be expected in the "unique" circumstance we all find ourselves.
OP
Okay, so the two sides meet and discuss new fences. If they can't agree should it go to binding arbitration? And what if you disagree with the new arbitrator's ruling? Will you extort more concessions from the AWA pilot group in the name of "unity"?
Concessions from what?
What "concessions" hast the rooties given?
What concessions did the rooties give to gain stock options, or was it profit sharing, I can't remember all the enhancements rooties got on the backs of the easties.
Had the arbitrator bothered to investigate, he would have seen the gross inequity in pilot contracts, allowing the easties to operate with 620 less pilots than the rooties that was never figured in to his "calculus".
I feel much of this came from the anti-labor dudes like Glass, aided and abetted by the naive among us.
We have tried the positive thinking, the chemo and this cancer ain't going away. I would suggest an attempted shutdown and reboot. Barring that, the patient should die. Kill it now while the 50 year olds can get another job.
Sorry.
ClueByFour,
I am not the origninator of the comments I have written about this situation and the information I have posted has come directly from ALPA sources.
For example, if ALPA is de-certified there can be no negotiations on a joint contract or no combining of seniority lists until there is a common union.
Or there will be no JNC talks until there is a common union.
Or the US Airways pilots will negotiate per the requirements of the Transition Agreement, but there is no timeline and no NMB process to cut a new agreement under these discussions. Thus, there will be no joint contract, which is something the PIT Reps., the PHL Reps., the other 8 MEC Reps. and I agree on unles there is a suitable resolution to the seniority lsit problem.
What don't you understand about this?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
I am not the origninator of the comments I have written about this situation and the information I have posted has come directly from ALPA sources.
For example, if ALPA is de-certified there can be no negotiations on a joint contract or no combining of seniority lists until there is a common union.
Or there will be no JNC talks until there is a common union.
Or the US Airways pilots will negotiate per the requirements of the Transition Agreement, but there is no timeline and no NMB process to cut a new agreement under these discussions. Thus, there will be no joint contract, which is something the PIT Reps., the PHL Reps., the other 8 MEC Reps. and I agree on unles there is a suitable resolution to the seniority lsit problem.
What don't you understand about this?
Regards,
USA320Pilot
ClueByFour
Veteran
The same group who told you what Nicolau would do, right? The ones who forced their own MC to take the DOH road?
I'd suggest that someone at East is not getting very good labor law advice, and that they should really re-read the transition agreement.
In which case the company can probably force the Nicolau list.
If that happens, it's almost assured that the company will put legal pressure on the East group to negotiate in good faith. ALPA national has to defend the award--ergo, it's not entirely out of the realm that they'd put the East MEC into receivership over the issue. If you think Prater is going to crater or hurt ALPA on East's behalf because DOH did not happen, I have a bridge I'll sell you on favorable terms.
Why you keep insinuating that any of it, in particular the notion that the East pilots can force a union on the West pilots. Either Dan Katz has taken up the practice of partaking of a rather large water bong on a regular basis or lost a side game of "truth or dare" with the West merger counsel, because "forcing" a union on anyone won't happen (because all the west guys have to do in that eventuality is "pull an East" and refuse to get to a single contract). Oh, and the arbitration will probably be binding on any successor union and any attempts to use the tyranny of the majority to get around it will result in a successful DFR lawsuit.
b737fo
Senior
- May 8, 2007
- 288
- 31
Rooties? What does that even mean? I'm guessing from your previous posts that it is not really a compliment.
Have a nice day anyway.
You're ignorance would be funny if it wouldn't have such serious consequences.
If ALPA is decertified, management can do whatever the fcuk it wants until there is a "common union" (whatever that means), because in the interim y'all will be non-union, at-will employees.
Do you even believe the stuff you post? There will be no negotiations at all about anything in the time between the time when ALPA is decertified and a new union is voted in. You will be NON-UNION. Management can impose whatever rules it wants. They will have no obligation to negotiate with you at all about anything. The day after ALPA is "decertified," unless another union is immediately voted in, management can decide to impose the Nicloau seniority list. Or they can decide to staple the East pilots underneath the West ones.
Seriously, who has been giving the East MEC labor law advice through this process? Either the East MEC has been totally disregarding the advice, or it has a good case for malpractice.
Ok let me explain this to you one more time, since your ALPO sources are telling you false information, or you are just posting this yourself blaming ALPO.
First of all there are no decerfication procedures under the RLA.
You can vote to change unions if enough cards are signed to call for an election and then during the said election if 50%+1 is not achieved then you are non-union, an employee at will, then the company will be free to change your pay, benefits and working conditions at will, there will be no negotiations as you won't be unionized nor have a CBA.
If 50%+1 is achieved you change unions, the same CBA, negotiations process and the arbitration remain in effect.
Second, since the merger the NMB has declared Single Carrier Status. The East and West are considered one working group under the RLA and NMB Guidelines. So if cards are signed to seek an election the West Pilots will have to participate in the process. The East won't be "voting" just themselves. Therefore the East pilots will not be able to "impose" anything on the West.
You might actually want to take the time and read the RLA and NMB Representational Manual instead of constantly posting false information and empty threats.
Everyone sees right through your posts which are filled with empty threats and you are filled with fear.
ALPA, East and West agreed to binding arbitration, now live with it.
And one more thing:
Don't let the facts get in your way!
While this is true, it is also true that the east pilots theoretically have the numbers to to make this change and, in effect, impose their will on the west pilots. You said it in your own post. 50%+1 is all it takes to make the change. Since the east pilots have somewhere north of 60% of the numbers on the combined list, it is theoretically possible for this "imposition" to happen.
You can call it "imposing," or democracy. The result is the same. Of course, this all depends on the east pilots showing three characteristics which have been notoriously absent from the group as a whole:
1) Involvement in union matters (a large percentage of the group is terminally apathetic.)
2) Solidarity for this cause. (This remains to be seen.)
3) Cojones.
Not counting the furloughees, the east has approximately 61.815% of the Nicolau combined list which is based on the January 1, 2007 pilots working.
On January 1st, the bottom pilot at west had a seniority number of 1829 (accurate within 5 or so.)
Placed immediately senior to him was the east pilot whose number on January 1st, was 2950 (again, within about 5 or so.)
Since that time, the east has had a higher rate of attrition than the west, but they have also brought back some furloughees to offset this attrition. So there are additional working pilots on the east (junior, by Nicolau's decree, to those cited above) who can vote in an election.
So, there you have it: the numbers direct from the various seniority lists. I reiterate, mathematically the east has the capability (even without counting still furloughed pilots) to elect a union change and drag the west pilots with them.
Yes numberswise they do, but now you have to see will they all sign cards, will they all vote and whom would they vote for.
With the numbers that close, it would be a toss up on what would happen.
More than likely you would see a decertification and end up with no union and no cba and being an employee at will.
With the numbers that close, it would be a toss up on what would happen.
More than likely you would see a decertification and end up with no union and no cba and being an employee at will.
N924PS
Veteran
- May 9, 2004
- 2,037
- 1,529
