If they are On Board, write em up

[luvn737s]

No, people choose their own "god" every day : Wealth, Popularity, Power, Wife, Children, heck , even a cool car can become the sole recipient of someone's full love and attention and thus their "god". It is man's sin nature to choose the counterfeit over the authentic. The counterfeit never requires surrender.

 

[SparrowHawk]

No, people choose their own "god" every day : Wealth, Popularity, Power, Wife, Children, heck , even a cool car can become the sole recipient of someone's full love and attention and thus their "god". It is man's sin nature to choose the counterfeit over the authentic. The counterfeit never requires surrender.

WOW! That's way to deep for me Son!

 

[CallawayGolf]

No, people choose their own "god" every day : Wealth, Popularity, Power, Wife, Children, heck , even a cool car can become the sole recipient of someone's full love and attention and thus their "god". It is man's sin nature to choose the counterfeit over the authentic. The counterfeit never requires surrender.

Yeah, I get it. God made man in his own image and then man in turn made gods according to his own image/imagination.

 

[28L_or_10R?]

This thread sure went on a tangent.

 

[ChockJockey]

The founding father may disagree with you. Certainly a sampling of their quotes show otherwise. No one can deny that many of the founding fathers of the United States of America were men of deep religious convictions based in the Bible and their Christian faith in Jesus Christ. Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

Did none of those 24 heed the words of Romans 13:1-7?

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Did the Word not bid the American colonists to be humble and obedient to the British master god had instituted for them? Fascinating that so many of the Founding Fathers invoked divine will and providence yet provide virtually no scriptural basis for it whatsoever. That these were pious men appealing to a pious nation and an ostensibly pious world goes without saying. Without claiming a Christian basis for action they weren't going to get much accomplished in their cause for independence.

I would challenge anyone to find a biblical basis for Freedom of Speech. I would be overjoyed to find those snippets of scripture that proclaim that people are free to worship or not worship the god or gods of their choosing. It would seem counter-productive for god to ordain that no nation or kingdom may claim an official state religion. Christ had no way of knowing what a printing press was, so I guess that has to be thrown out. Hows about independent judiciaries not subject to the rule of kings or church? Representative democracy? Now is that to be found in the New or Old Testament? Checks and balances? Habeus corpus? Trial by jury? Right to counsel? Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures? Right against self-incrimination? Bicameral legislatures? Federalism? Due process? Equal protection under the law? Civilian control and oversight of the military? Right to a speedy trial? Presumption of innocence?

For all the selective exhortations of the Founders of natural rights being the will and gift of a creator the fact remains that outside of one's personal faith such a claim has no practical merit whatsoever. You will find vastly more influence on Declaratory and Constitutive ideals by the ancient Greeks, pagan Romans, British common law and Enlightenment philosophy than you will anything on the stone tablets of Moses or Christ's sermon on the mount. The exhortations of the opinion, however strongly held, that the invention of a concept so human and abstract as "liberty" by a being that has never known submission seems nonetheless to me to be so much window dressing and marketing. We can see ever more so today with the benefit of hindsight and historical analysis that the enunciation of liberal ideals by the Founding Fathers were the result of centuries of human social, economic and political development.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Thomas Jefferson's original wording on the Declaration of Independence

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." -letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." -Diaries, 18 February 1756

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." -"A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788]

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." -"letter to Zabdiel Adams, June 21, 1776

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

Simply because the Fathers uttered or penned it does not make is so. These were men, and as such were subject to the same tendency towards weakness, error, prejudice and interest that inflict us all. Even the most like-minded of them would disagree on finer details, and many made prophecies and prognostications that never came to be. Given that many worked and wrote over the course of their lives it's no surprise that we can find contradictory or confused quotes coming from the same person or groups of people. We must keep in mind also that these men lived an an era in which the lack of scientific understanding made the ascribing of natural phenomena to the will of god all the easier. The upshot of this paragraph being, just because the Founders credit god as the grantor of liberty to does not make it unquestionably true; these were not prophets espousing revelation but professionals stating opinion and rousing popular sentiment for a cause.

My purpose here is to combat the notion that religious faith or belief in a god is somehow requisite or otherwise necessary to enjoy American rights, or the idea that disbelief in and of itself is mutually exclusive or inherently opposed to freedom. I believe the opposite is true. Some say non-believers can't make good Americans, I say those that hold such an opinion don't understand the true nature or depth of the American concept of Liberty.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Did none of those 24 heed the words of Romans 13:1-7?

Unless one of the founding fathers has written about Romans 13 and how the cause of American independence was aligned with Scripture in this context, we will never know what they were thinking. I personally know Christians who believe the founding fathers were wrong to oppose British tyranny and I also know others who believe that not only was their cause correct, but that it was only by God’s providence and protection that the fledgling band of revolutionary fighters could possibly wage a winning battle against the most powerful military in the world at that time. Of course, if we take a literal interpretation of Romans 13, and we should, then every government and every leader that has ever existed was and is appointed by God. So the mere fact that the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution exist and that George Washington was the first president of the United States means that the actions and government established by the founders was pre-ordained by God.

The debates about what could or should have been done back in 1770’s can go on forever. The point is that it is a documented fact that a large portion of the signers of the Declaration were Christian and they were fully committed to founding a nation that offered freedom and a voice to its citizens to live, worship and engage in commerce without an overburdened and overly powerful centralized government. There have been many books written about how the founding fathers used the principles of Scripture to construct what has now become the longest-running and most replicated constitution ever to exist in the world. It’s an exceptional form of government, current corruptions and insolvency notwithstanding, and the men who authored the documents deserve our gratitude and respect. And, we should not try to discount their personal beliefs in God because it is no longer fashionable in a now secular nation to admit to faith in God or the influence that faith may have on the public square.

I would challenge anyone to find a biblical basis for Freedom of Speech.

Well, first of that is in the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution so the authorship is not reflected in the same. Nevertheless on this and the other points you made, we would be wise to remember that the Bible is not a textbook, with all of the answers for life provided therein. The important information about knowing, loving and serving God in faith is certainly there, but we don’t find information about what time to get up in the morning, how to brush our teeth, or any other such information about how to form and run a representative republic should we ever have the opportunity to do so. It’s the difference between Interpretation and Application. First we interpret the text, then we seek to apply the true interpretation in any and all aspects of life. God didn’t tell Adam and Eve which fruit they should eat, He simply told them that they may freely eat except for the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gave them nearly unlimited freedom within the limits of His one restriction.

Simply because the Fathers uttered or penned it does not make is so. These were men, and as such were subject to the same tendency towards weakness, error, prejudice and interest that inflict us all. Even the most like-minded of them would disagree on finer details, and many made prophecies and prognostications that never came to be. Given that many worked and wrote over the course of their lives it's no surprise that we can find contradictory or confused quotes coming from the same person or groups of people. We must keep in mind also that these men lived an an era in which the lack of scientific understanding made the ascribing of natural phenomena to the will of god all the easier. The upshot of this paragraph being, just because the Founders credit god as the grantor of liberty to does not make it unquestionably true; these were not prophets espousing revelation but professionals stating opinion and rousing popular sentiment for a cause.

I agree; the actions and statements made by these men were entirely subject to human fallibility and error, unlike Scripture which is not. However, what these men penned was ultimately ratified through a constitutional process and it is now the law of the land.

My purpose here is to combat the notion that religious faith or belief in a god is somehow requisite or otherwise necessary to enjoy American rights, or the idea that disbelief in and of itself is mutually exclusive or inherently opposed to freedom. I believe the opposite is true. Some say non-believers can't make good Americans, I say those that hold such an opinion don't understand the true nature or depth of the American concept of Liberty.

I agree here too. Many people with no concept of God enjoy the rewards of living in this nation. No one is suggesting that people somehow be forced into a religious system they don’t believe in. There are faiths and countries around the world, mostly in the middle east, that do follow such a course of action (religion by force), but not the US. There is no shortage of unbelievers who are model citizens, though there eternal destiny is in peril; similarly, there is also unfortunately no shortage of believing Christians who are miserable citizens, but because they have their faith and hope in the one true Savior, their eternal position is secure. Jesus didn’t die to make bad men good; He died to freely give eternal life to all who believe in Him.

 

[Dog Wonder]

Well, first of that is in the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution so the authorship is not reflected in the same.

The Bill of Rights is in the Constitution. The first ten amendments to be precise.

If you wish to lecture on history and religion, some cultural literacy is required.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Bill of Rights is in the Constitution. The first ten amendments to be precise.

If you wish to lecture on history and religion, some cultural literacy is required.

The conversation is about the founding fathers and their efforts to construct a constitutional form of government. The Bill of Rights was proposed/demanded by the various states/colonies not the original framers of the Constitution. Try again.

 

[28L_or_10R?]

The conversation is about the founding fathers and their efforts to construct a constitutional form of government. The Bill of Rights was proposed/demanded by the various states/colonies not the original framers of the Constitution. Try again.

The conversation was about the poster snap this (Itchy McSnitchy) advocating snitching on other unionized workgroups.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The conversation was about the poster snap this (Itchy McSnitchy) advocating snitching on other unionized workgroups.

26 pages ago, that's where we started. And now the conversation has flowed to include the founding fathers, the constitution, and God. I didn't bring up those sidebar topics, but I did seek to interject truth about those topics into the conversation. So long as everyone is satisfied that those errors have been cleared up, then please carry on with the conversation about reporting people who fail to properly perform their jobs, or not.

 

[Metroyet]

26 pages ago, that's where we started. And now the conversation has flowed to include the founding fathers, the constitution, and God. I didn't bring up those sidebar topics, but I did seek to interject truth about those topics into the conversation. So long as everyone is satisfied that those errors have been cleared up, then please carry on with the conversation about reporting people who fail to properly perform their jobs, or not.

Everybody has their own version of what "the truth" is. IMO, all are of equal value.

 

[leprechaun]

Back on track, Slapthis is a tool, who believes he is far more important, than he really is. How dare a ramper question him.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Everybody has their own version of what "the truth" is. IMO, all are of equal value.

Of course one's own version of the truth isn't truth at all; that's called an opinion. If I have made any statements that can be factually refuted, please do so. I'm always open to correcting my false perceptions and I never want to mislead someone into believing a falsehood.

 

[700UW]

What does God have to do with no SIDA badge?

 

[28L_or_10R?]

What does God have to do with no SIDA badge?

They've gone on a tangent. There is no stopping them.