If this is all about DL employee's "overwhelming desire" to unionize...

[700UW]

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

It can happen and all ready happened at DL and other airlines:

Alaska Airlines Contracts With Menzies Aviation For Seattle Ramp Services
5/13/2005 3:15 a.m.


SEATTLE — As part of a continuing cost-management initiative to secure the airline's future, Alaska Airlines has contracted with Menzies Aviation to provide ramp services at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport.

Effective immediately, the move means the loss of 472 ramp service positions in Seattle held by company employees. Ramp services include loading and unloading baggage, and guiding aircraft to and from airport gates.

Alaska Airlines currently contracts with outside companies to provide ramp services in 41 of the 56 cities it serves. The decision to work with a service provider in Seattle is projected to save the airline more than $13 million annually.

"A decision of this kind, impacting people who have served this company well, is extremely difficult," Alaska's CEO Bill Ayer said. "But the ongoing turmoil in the airline industry, coupled with high fuel prices and pressure from low-cost carriers, puts us in a position where we must continue to find ways to reduce the cost of running our airline.

"Our success working with providers in other cities gives us confidence that we can continue moving Seattle customers' bags reliably while reducing our operating costs significantly," Ayer said.

The decision came after a lengthy evaluation process in which Alaska Airlines considered numerous options for saving money while improving the efficiency of the airline's ramp services. In addition to requesting proposals from outside providers, the airline conducted talks over a period of 20 months with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) to discuss contract changes focused on achieving a more market-competitive rate for delivering these services to customers. "Unfortunately, we were unable to achieve a contract approaching the savings available from service providers," said Ed White, Alaska's vice president of ground operations.

"To ease the transition for affected employees, we are working with the IAM to offer a more lucrative severance package than that specified in the current contract," White said. In line with the severance offered to management, maintenance and fleet service employees last year, this package would include two weeks of base pay for each year of service; a cash bonus of $3,000 to $15,000 based on length of service; one year of company-paid health care coverage; and travel benefits for the employee and eligible dependents; in addition to a nine-week extension of current wages and benefits, as required by law. The airline also will provide information on outplacement assistance, career counseling, retraining resources and opportunities with other local employers.

Employees impacted by the Seattle decision will have the option to receive full company severance while applying for jobs with the new service provider. Still under negotiation with the IAM is the contract covering more than 450 ramp service, air freight and supply agents in the state of Alaska; nearly 140 air freight and supply agents in Seattle; and 13 supply agents in Los Angeles, Oakland, Phoenix, Portland and San Francisco. The airline plans to participate in mediated sessions with the union this summer focused on reaching an agreement with this bargaining unit.

Menzies Aviation is a global provider of ground handling services to more than 500 airline customers at some of the world's busiest airports. The company provides ramp services for Alaska Airlines in Los Angeles, Portland, San Francisco, San Jose and at all Mexican airports the airline serves.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

So you've bought it hook, line, and sinker, Luke. The prposed BOD is FAR different from NW's and will be comprised of a majority (9 to 7) DAL members + an ALPA. And you should know better regarding your own DL. While AMR, NWA, etc are seeking to outsource everything, DAL, CAL, and others have seen the value in keeping it in-house...namely Mx and Cust Svc (including inflight) functions. You can't pitch being a "fresh", "high-service" carrier and outsource your inflight. But I'm glad you have subscribed to the propaganda.

Yes I am DL and no I am NOT a FA. But every decision that the company makes...mgmt down to rank-and-file...affects my livlihood and future. I do not want to see any DL employee going away and I honestly do not see the outsourcing attempt that was made at NWA making its way to DAL. DAL has not forced these decisions in the past with a non-unionized workforce, and they won't in the future just b/c some NWA AFA recruiters told you they would. The garbage and desperation that I'm seeing on these boards from recruiters and people that don't even know what DAL is about is disgusting. You and I have been at DAL and know what it's about. It will take time for others to understand that there can be different cultures than what they are used to from their carriers. Just b/c they experienced it in a different culture does NOT mean it will happen here. Make decisions based on what work for you and your fellow DLers in the long-term (i.e. sustainability)...but please don't get intimidated or panicked by the trash that others are feeding you. Like I pointed out in my last post...Danny uses cust satisfaction as a measure of AFA's success and it is abysmal at their carriers (UA, US, YV). The pitches are nothing but lie after lie...they need more than $28M a year in income to survive, apparently.

I haven't "bought" anything, any more than you have from the other side of the equation. I hope you're right that Int'l flying won't be outsourced, but do you have guarantees? I'll tell you what...I'm a good, conscientious driver and have never (knock wood) been in an accident and certainly don't plan to be but you know what? I still buy auto insurance. It's the same thing with the union.
When and if your dept has the gumption to get enough union cards signed to hold an election like Inflite has, then you can go to town on this board. I won't comment because I don't work in any other dept. You should offer those in my dept the same respect. YOU have NO idea what FAs go thru so you really should watch what you say. It's a lot more involved...reserve, reroutes, call-out times, legalities, min. crew rest and the list goes on. It's not your purview as your dept is not mine.
And Danny is just as welcome to comment here as USAIR757 who also does NOT work here and I don't see you chiding him...only because you agree with his arguments. So it's ok to post here as a non DL employee if you're anti-union but not if you're for the union?? Danny actually has more right to post here because in about 1 year he WILL be a DL f/a. So if we're going to base the level of "disgust", as you so dramatically put it, on your parameters, then I'm more "disgusted" by someone like USAIR757 who not only doesn't work here, but also doesn't work for ANY airline any longer.

 

[Airlinelifer]

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

You say whats the difference between a subsidiary - DGS and Delta ramp, probably about $8.00/hr difference in pay, with crappy or no benefits.

Many in this department don't work in the hubs, so the spoke stations are slowly, methodically replacing employees with this subsidiary.
Yes, they grew with the company, not when they opened new stations, but by replacing mainline Delta rampers at estabalished spoke stations.

Ok, I'll drink the Kool-Aide, and be happy with DGS or if I'm really lucky I can hang on with Delta's ramp, and STILL lose my pension, pay higher medical and dental premiums, lose my bumping rights and other layoff protection, my accrued vacation, oh, wait..... but i'll save $2.05 every workday by joining this outfit. I didn't lose this much in banruptcy!


Keep Delta your Delta

 

[Airlinelifer]

You say whats the difference between a subsidiary - DGS and Delta ramp, probably about $8.00/hr difference in pay, with crappy or no benefits.

Many in this department don't work in the hubs, so the spoke stations are slowly, methodically replacing employees with this subsidiary.
Yes, they grew with the company, not when they opened new stations, but by replacing mainline Delta rampers at estabalished spoke stations.

Ok, I'll drink the Kool-Aide, and be happy with DGS or if I'm really lucky I can hang on with Delta's ramp, and STILL lose my pension, pay higher medical and dental premiums, lose my bumping rights and other layoff protection, my accrued vacation, oh, wait..... but i'll save $2.05 every workday by joining this outfit. I didn't lose this much in banruptcy!


Keep Delta your Delta

The $2.05 per workday I'll gladly spend on my union dues.

 

[Danny Campbell]

To All:

As the former President of NWA's FA union, I had to laugh tonight when I watched my 'ole pal Richard Anderson giving his Delta webcast / public address. When he and Mike Campbell (from the union-busting lawfirm 'Ford & Harrison') talk about the deep "Delta traditions", it just seems surreal to me. Richard Anderson (1 year), Mike Campbell (3 years ?).

Sheesh -- I wonder if Delta employees could turn back the hands of time (one year ago) to when they were fighting off the hostile bid from USAirway with their "Keep Delta MY Delta" campaign, could imagine that 'their' Delta would now be run by "Our NWA", they would have thought twice about the stickers. I worked closely with Dick Anderson -- but I also know he is a cunning strategist. It's amazing what he (they) have managed to position themselves in over the past few years. Delta employees are in for a REAL SHOCKER ! First comes the pep talks, then the "roll up yer sleeves" speeches and before you know it, jobs are shipped to China and India -- workloads are radically changed and unless you have a strong contract (with Scope protections), you will be enticed with SHORT TERM economic gains -- while the longer term plans are laid to eliminate your jobs. They are brilliant when it comes to executing the global 'race to the bottom' in the airline industry.

Fasten yer seatbelts !

 

[Kev3188]

I do not want to see any DL employee going away and I honestly do not see the outsourcing attempt that was made at NWA making its way to DAL. DAL has not forced these decisions in the past with a non-unionized workforce...

This is a wind up, right?

If you truly believe what you wrote, I respectfully suggest you bone up on your company's history.

"Forcing" these decisions on the DL masses is exactly what has happened.

 

[USAir757]

First comes the pep talks, then the "roll up yer sleeves" speeches and before you know it, jobs are shipped to China and India -- workloads are radically changed and unless you have a strong contract (with Scope protections), you will be enticed with SHORT TERM economic gains -- while the longer term plans are laid to eliminate your jobs. They are brilliant when it comes to executing the global 'race to the bottom' in the airline industry.

Fasten yer seatbelts !

A sincere warning.... or a pre-war address, Mr. Bush?

"Lead by fear, it works."

 

[bagboy]

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

The sooner you understand that DSG and Comair aren't DL the sooner we can move on to stopping Rich and the rest of his nasties from shutting down stations, full of loyal and qualified help for the cheaper, less qualified and less motivated help. The fact that DSG, Comair, Mesaba, and Compass don't get a vote in the unionization of the new DL ramp will help NW and the IAM take over the ramp. We can then try to slow or stop the outsourcing of our jobs for the lower paying DSG jobs. The same my ass. After over ten year at Comiar, a guy in my staton make just over 12 bucks an hour. Not the same.

 

[Ch. 12]

A sincere warning.... or a pre-war address, Mr. Bush?

"Lead by fear, it works."

Yes...and just like Bush, he disappears when the questions come...answering none...but sticks to his talking points and comes out with another terror-laden speech to rally the fearful and mislead the public. I don't know...after some pretty good questions that I posed to the campaigner, I never heard back. Sounds EXACTLY like politics to me. Disappear when the veil has been pulled aside b/c there are no truthful answers...just talking points.

Fear, fear, fear...Zombies will eat your children if NW/DL goes through and you DON'T start paying dues to AFA!!!

 

[Airlinelifer]

Yes...and just like Bush, he disappears when the questions come...answering none...but sticks to his talking points and comes out with another terror-laden speech to rally the fearful and mislead the public. I don't know...after some pretty good questions that I posed to the campaigner, I never heard back. Sounds EXACTLY like politics to me. Disappear when the veil has been pulled aside b/c there are no truthful answers...just talking points.

Fear, fear, fear...Zombies will eat your children if NW/DL goes through and you DON'T start paying dues to AFA!!!

You don't want to answer the counterpoints about the misinformation you posted regarding DGS (Delta Global Service) and other Delta subsidiaries, and you whine about other people's legitimate concerns.

Its funny that Richard Andersons memo to Delta's employees have NWA employees moving up in pay, but he forgot to mention the part about the pension (which Delta doesnt have), medical, dental costing less at NWA. Its easy to minipulate the agenda when theirs no one to point out the inferiority of Delta's overall employee benefits plan.

The truth is Delta Airlines is not offering the pay and benefits package that NWA provides. Tell me how this merger is going to help me and my Northwest co-workers. Show me in black and white what Delta's got to offer, and if it's not monetary/pension/benefits and seniority/layoff protection don't bother, the silence would benefit us all.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Ch 12:

What question are you talking about. If you have question pose it. I am working on a massive campaign and don't have time to live on a form like this, but if you have a question, I missed it (repost it).

My position about outsourcing is not 'fear' mongering. Hell -- read a book or the papers. It's based on history and experience with this management team. Is it 'fear mongering' to point out that just two years ago, they proposed at the bargaining table an aggressive plan to outsource 75% of our international flying to low-cost foreign workers. Do you dispute that fact? Do you dispute the fact that it would reduce our US based flight attendant jobs by 35 - 40% - or is that fear mongering? Likewise, do you dispute that they outsourced (to Asia) most of the jobs that were formerly done by our NWA mechanics in the United States? Perhaps you can comfort the 1,000's of mechanics who were 'cut lose' from NWA that their concerns for their families, their health care, their mortgages and their futures are just silly notions.

The 'race-to-the-bottom' and the exporting of US jobs is not fiction. It is a fact that is happening in the US. Denying it or turning a blind eye to it hurts the ENTIRE US economy.

Danny

 

[groundcontrol]

QUOTE (Airlinelifer @ Apr 15 2008, 08:14 PM)
Ch 12, did you know that Delta vendors out a majority of its below wing Customer Service (ramp)? Delta only has ramp personnel in 15 cities. The rest are vendored out to DGS (Delta Global Service, a Delta subsidiary) or other vendors. Northwest Airlines has ramp personnel in 40 cities, is Delta going to keep open the cities that NWA ramp presently works at? I don't want to start my career at Delta with a layoff notice.

Ah yes...the DGS argument. But they ARE DL...in the form of a subsidiary. I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers? No. Do you go from being a NWA ramper to a DGS ramper? probably. That is still DL, though. What is the difference?

I know it's easier said than done but please don't subscribe to all of the rumors that those that benefit from your dues are trying to put out there. Again...it is logistically impossible for DGS to magically make thousands of rampers appear on their staff to take your jobs.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but to say "I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers?", is just plain ignorant.

I've been on these boards since 2005 and if there is anyone more honest and informed on this subject it would be Kev.
He has seen the NW ramps outsourced and yes there wasn't a shortage of part timers and low wage earners filling these positions.

Good luck

 

[Kev3188]

QUOTE (Airlinelifer @ Apr 15 2008, 08:14 PM)
Ch 12, did you know that Delta vendors out a majority of its below wing Customer Service (ramp)? Delta only has ramp personnel in 15 cities. The rest are vendored out to DGS (Delta Global Service, a Delta subsidiary) or other vendors. Northwest Airlines has ramp personnel in 40 cities, is Delta going to keep open the cities that NWA ramp presently works at? I don't want to start my career at Delta with a layoff notice.

This is a fantastic question, and one that has not been *explicitly* answered. If both companies are as hell bent on making this a smooth transition, they need to take the necessary steps to assure the masses that they'll be included.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but to say "I don't recall reading in the news how DL fired all of their rampers and replaced them with DGS...it grew with the company. Do you think that DGS has a massive reserve pool waiting to come off of their couches to take the thousands of ramp jobs that will open up when mean ol' DL fires every last one of the NWA rampers?", is just plain ignorant.

It is amazingly ignorant. From up on his high horse Ch12 fails to remember that it doesn't have to be done in one fell swoop. If DL's past is precedent, it's more likely be a "death of a thousand cuts" kind of deal. And yes, there are plenty of people to take these jobs. If DGS can't get 'em, WFS or ATS will do it for them. Will they provide the quality service DL prides itself on? Not likely.

Look, if DL wants us to come around to their way of thinking, they need to take steps to include us-and that includes all of us, not just MSP & DTW. It's hard to get excited about the "glorious future" Andersen and Steenland are peddling when you doubt you'll have a place in the sun.

I've been on these boards since 2005 and if there is anyone more honest and informed on this subject it would be Kev.
He has seen the NW ramps outsourced and yes there wasn't a shortage of part timers and low wage earners filling these positions.

Good luck

Thank you for the kind words; they're sincerely appreciated! 🙂

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch 12:

What question are you talking about. If you have question pose it. I am working on a massive campaign and don't have time to live on a form like this, but if you have a question, I missed it (repost it).

My position about outsourcing is not 'fear' mongering. Hell -- read a book or the papers. It's based on history and experience with this management team. Is it 'fear mongering' to point out that just two years ago, they proposed at the bargaining table an aggressive plan to outsource 75% of our international flying to low-cost foreign workers. Do you dispute that fact? Do you dispute the fact that it would reduce our US based flight attendant jobs by 35 - 40% - or is that fear mongering? Likewise, do you dispute that they outsourced (to Asia) most of the jobs that were formerly done by our NWA mechanics in the United States? Perhaps you can comfort the 1,000's of mechanics who were 'cut lose' from NWA that their concerns for their families, their health care, their mortgages and their futures are just silly notions.

The 'race-to-the-bottom' and the exporting of US jobs is not fiction. It is a fact that is happening in the US. Denying it or turning a blind eye to it hurts the ENTIRE US economy.

Danny

Danny-

Not sure how you missed but here goes...questions and counterpoints...

-Adding DL is clearly beneficial to the AFA who will increase dues-paying membership by 21% adding over $6 Million per year to their coffers. I have looked and am sure that it is avail but I am not certain where to find it, but can you please give us all a link to AFA's financials? As a not-for-profit, the $28 Million + collected annually (trying to get it to $34.5 Million with DL) has to all be productively used and I'm sure accounted for for governmental purposes. Since we are obviously not to trust mgmt yet the disclose their finances, can we see AFA's so that we can trust theirs? Like I said...it probably exists but I'm not sure where to find it. Thanks.

-You and your website's propaganda repeatedly infer that DL mgmt will look to outsource 75% of international flying since NW did. You use the false premise that it is the same mgmt. Not sure if we got different press releases (or maybe this is the part where I shouldn't trust mgmt?) but it looks pretty DL-centric with 7 DL board members, 5 NW members, and one ALPA. NOT the same mgmt. And if you would look at what DL has done with focusing on language-FAs, you might see where the direction is. I don't think that DL is hiring Portuguese speaking FA's to fly to MQT.

-You have said in one breath that you get nothing out of this but in another, you and your friends have said that you "don't want DL FAs ruining YOUR pay". Why make your efforts seem so selfless and outwardly passionate when the opposite has been stated?

-Back to airline rankings (since this was, after all, the metric you used for 'happiness' and success of AFA)...Why are fellow AFAers at UA/US the most miserable (according to the rankings?) And why has NW slipped so far YOY...they have gone negative in the customer-centric area. Why is AFA making NW's attendants so miserable over the past year (according to your metric)? OR....is it perhaps that you didn't understand the metrics and tried using them for a positive spin? I already posted the link the the full report...feel free to peruse.

When it comes down to it...no...you're not trying to 'protect' DL FAs. You're trying to protect NW FAs since there are 33% more DL FAs. And as has been stated...don't let DL FAs drag you down. How opportunistic to use fear and lies during the merger! Why not tell the DL FAs that it truly is NOT the same mgmt team? Why make it sound like DL is currently looking to outsource 75% of international? Hmmm...WMDs...Al Qaeda in Iraq...Saddam responsible for 9/11...slam dunk...mission accomplished. Why does this fear campaign seem eerily familiar?

 

[Ch. 12]

Where, or where is the Danny boy? Waiting until after the vote to handle questions that aren't puff?