"Well in a year it will be over one way or another, no matter what the outcome is it still beats 6 years under these terms."
That assumes AA didn''t liquidate. Right?
That assumes AA didn''t liquidate. Right?
I''ll take my chances with the judge
- Thread starter RV4
- Start date
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On 4/9/2003 3:51:23 PM AAviator wrote:
Ok, the judge just screwed you, sec1113. TWU has no contract. Now what?
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On 4/9/2003 3:51:23 PM AAviator wrote:
Ok, the judge just screwed you, sec1113. TWU has no contract. Now what?
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Now we stand face to face as equals. They have a gun to our heads and we have one to theirs. Right now the company is holding a gun to our heads and saying give me all your money and "maybe" I wont shoot you. Why should I volunteer to work under conditions that I would rather strike against. If we submit we are stuck for six years. If we go to court, the company is also put under presuure to come up with proposals that are reasonable, neccesary and equitable. Other wise they provide us with "good cayse" to reject. Six years in itself is good cause, never mind the severety of the cuts.
We presented the proposal to our Lawyer. He said in his thirty years of practice he had seen plenty of concessionary contracts but never one like this. He said that while bankruptcy was not a good thing, its clear that in this case the cure is worse than the disease. We need to reject this proposal.
Please play out the scenarios. AA pulls the trigger, you guys walk. What happens next?
AA comes up with a deal with you guys. Citigroup says "not good enough" now what?
AA comes up with a deal with you guys. Citigroup says "not good enough" now what?
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On 4/9/2003 5:39:36 PM air_guy wrote:
I think there is a misconception on taking chances in Bankruptcy. This is how it works:
The company proposes changes to the judge based on the overall savings requirement of the DIP lenders.
The judge reaches a decision on what modifications are needed.
- If the employees don''t like it they can quit or may strike. DIP lenders pull out and the company gets liquidated.
- If the DIP lenders think the changes are not enough they pull out and the company gets liquidated.
There is no arguing or negotiating, you either take it or loose your job. Why do you think United''s unions are getting agreements before 1113.
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On 4/9/2003 5:39:36 PM air_guy wrote:
I think there is a misconception on taking chances in Bankruptcy. This is how it works:
The company proposes changes to the judge based on the overall savings requirement of the DIP lenders.
The judge reaches a decision on what modifications are needed.
- If the employees don''t like it they can quit or may strike. DIP lenders pull out and the company gets liquidated.
- If the DIP lenders think the changes are not enough they pull out and the company gets liquidated.
There is no arguing or negotiating, you either take it or loose your job. Why do you think United''s unions are getting agreements before 1113.
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Well you are leaving a hell of a lot of important details out. Nice try.
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On 4/9/2003 5:27:43 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob Usairways ended 2001 with 342 jets. They now operate 279. Thats a 20% reduction. How many jobs is that?
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On 4/9/2003 5:27:43 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob Usairways ended 2001 with 342 jets. They now operate 279. Thats a 20% reduction. How many jobs is that?
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Dont know, but what guarantees do we get that AA will not decrease by 20%? I would rather be laid off for a year or two and come back to full pay than work for 60% forever. Layoffs present opportunities as well as hardship. It gives you the opportunity to try other things while collecting unemployment. I remember an oldtimer saying that layoffs were not that bad, anybody he saw that got laid off came back just as fat as when they left. I''m not saying that its a good thing but its not the end either. I''ve been through it, I survived, I just wish that they had kept the rate up so when I was working I was getting good pay.
USAIR guys still made out better than we would. They have 8 holidays at double time and a half vs our 5 at time and a half. They get shift differential. 8 sick days at full pay vs our 5 at half pay. They still do deicing and pushbacks. Double time, 40 hour week, 8 hour shifts. Its almost like they have a union contract instead of our company/union agreement.
Or, you guys pull the trigger, AA folds. Right? Talk about false power. What does that do to your paycheck for 6 years?
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On 4/9/2003 4:34:27 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob, check you facts.
Bonner. (alabama pension fund) whacked them hard while IN BK.
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On 4/9/2003 4:34:27 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob, check you facts.
Bonner. (alabama pension fund) whacked them hard while IN BK.
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Well USAIR was a regional airline with costs higher than the mainlines. Despite that I still did not see the Judge abrogate any contracts yet. USAIR mechanics may have taken a slightly bigger hit on the wages end but in reality they are still better off than us. When our proposal was shown to a USAIR mechanic he said that we were getting screwed worse than him. They have 8 Holidays vs our 5, 8 sick days vs our 5, all paid at 100%, not half pay for the first two days of each occurance, they still do deicing, around here worth $5000/ year, shift differential, the 8 hr day vs 8.5 on nights, double time, OT for training off shift and push backs. They get 5% back once the War is over, that brings them right up to us and they have the 85 point retirement plan. This is an airline that has been in bad shapr for a long time and they are better off out of BK than we would be before BK. UAL baggage handlers, in BK were given a better proposal than our baggage handlers. You need to check your facts. BK is not as bad as this proposal. Why do you think they just suspended the voting?
Bob Usairways ended 2001 with 342 jets. They now operate 279. Thats a 20% reduction. How many jobs is that?
I think there is a misconception on taking chances in Bankruptcy. This is how it works:
The company proposes changes to the judge based on the overall savings requirement of the DIP lenders.
The judge reaches a decision on what modifications are needed.
- If the employees don''t like it they can quit or may strike. DIP lenders pull out and the company gets liquidated.
- If the DIP lenders think the changes are not enough they pull out and the company gets liquidated.
There is no arguing or negotiating, you either take it or loose your job. Why do you think United''s unions are getting agreements before 1113.
The company proposes changes to the judge based on the overall savings requirement of the DIP lenders.
The judge reaches a decision on what modifications are needed.
- If the employees don''t like it they can quit or may strike. DIP lenders pull out and the company gets liquidated.
- If the DIP lenders think the changes are not enough they pull out and the company gets liquidated.
There is no arguing or negotiating, you either take it or loose your job. Why do you think United''s unions are getting agreements before 1113.
They also used to have a res office in MCO and a maintenance base in TPA which were closed after Bronner entered the scene.
- Thread Starter
- #26
AAViator,
Why did the TWU suspend voting on the T/A if the Judge is going ot hammer us?
Why did the TWU suspend voting on the T/A if the Judge is going ot hammer us?
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On 4/9/2003 6:31:34 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob,
U has no BK judge anymore. They have exited BK. Their CEO says they need another 200 million a year. How is their deal a good deal? Full pay til the last day?
Read http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/business...BR>F.Y.I. they are not a regional. I can't think of any regional airlines that have a trans atlantic network.
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On 4/9/2003 6:31:34 PM AAviator wrote:
Bob,
U has no BK judge anymore. They have exited BK. Their CEO says they need another 200 million a year. How is their deal a good deal? Full pay til the last day?
Read http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/business...BR>F.Y.I. they are not a regional. I can't think of any regional airlines that have a trans atlantic network.
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Good deal? Are you putting words in my mouth? I said it was better than the crap that Little and company put in front of us.
RV4 there is no judge yet.
Rumor off the UAL board: Mechanic deal....
The word is the deal is done.
Oakland is gone
Indy is gone
150-250 a month for your med. insurance
People who can retire now maybe should leave now
because they are going to pay a huge medigap premium
if they wait.
R+D is gone also
Temp paycut is permanent for life of 6 year contract extension.
The no layoff letter is modified.Layoffs until 1-01-90
will be permitted.Good luck
How many mechanics total in Indy and Oak??
1000 Indy
900 Oak ??
R+D another 500 at least??
Rumor off the UAL board: Mechanic deal....
The word is the deal is done.
Oakland is gone
Indy is gone
150-250 a month for your med. insurance
People who can retire now maybe should leave now
because they are going to pay a huge medigap premium
if they wait.
R+D is gone also
Temp paycut is permanent for life of 6 year contract extension.
The no layoff letter is modified.Layoffs until 1-01-90
will be permitted.Good luck
How many mechanics total in Indy and Oak??
1000 Indy
900 Oak ??
R+D another 500 at least??
----------------
On 4/9/2003 6:37:17 PM AAviator wrote:
RV4 there is no judge yet.
Rumor off the UAL board: Mechanic deal....
The word is the deal is done.
Oakland is gone
Indy is gone
150-250 a month for your med. insurance
People who can retire now maybe should leave now
because they are going to pay a huge medigap premium
if they wait.
R+D is gone also
Temp paycut is permanent for life of 6 year contract extension.
The no layoff letter is modified.Layoffs until 1-01-90
will be permitted.Good luck
How many mechanics total in Indy and Oak??
1000 Indy
900 Oak ??
R+D another 500 at least??
----------------
There are 1000 mechanics in Indy? 900 in Oak?On 4/9/2003 6:37:17 PM AAviator wrote:
RV4 there is no judge yet.
Rumor off the UAL board: Mechanic deal....
The word is the deal is done.
Oakland is gone
Indy is gone
150-250 a month for your med. insurance
People who can retire now maybe should leave now
because they are going to pay a huge medigap premium
if they wait.
R+D is gone also
Temp paycut is permanent for life of 6 year contract extension.
The no layoff letter is modified.Layoffs until 1-01-90
will be permitted.Good luck
How many mechanics total in Indy and Oak??
1000 Indy
900 Oak ??
R+D another 500 at least??
----------------
oldiebutgoody
Veteran
I don''t think there is an answer to whether you might get a better deal with the judge or not. Maybe, maybe not. The big difference is, in Chapter 11, you''re a whole lot closer to the "hittin'' the bricks". The judge makes all the decisions, with inputs from creditor committees, the Debtor-in-possession,(management, and they get their inputs from whomever is providing the financing) and the law. Very little regard is given to what the employees want, it is all aimed at resolving the issues in a way to allow the creditors a better chance of recovering their investment. In US Airways'' case, EVERY SINGLE REQUEST made by management was approved by the judge, even the ones of questionable merit. I really don''t think it matters a whole lot what the labor groups decide on. If management feels they need more, they''ll just go Chapter 11 anyway, no matter what labor gives them. The largest money items management needs are lower labor costs, lower lease cost (both aircraft and property). A huge portion of the labor cost is in retirement funding, something that no group that I know of would EVER agree to cutting unless forced to. US Airways was permitted, by the judge and the government, to dump a huge retirement liability on the US taxpayers. This cut their costs by several BILLION dollars over the next few years, but caused the financial ruin of a huge number of pilots. Also, the creditors involved in the leases won''t just roll over, either. That''s why I would fully expect most carriers to head the way of Chapter 11. Just my observation. I hope I''m wrong, but this seems to be the 21st century method of airline negotiating.
