Industry Standard Wages

[TWU informer]

Overspread and nitrous nut seem to have a problem with increasing our wages to offset the increase in "negotiated" healthcare and pension benefits.

I have not experienced the problem yet Buck.

My problem and the reason I want out of the TWU is because my pay and benefits go down, not up.

I am not trying to eliminate jobs in exchange for more pay. I just simply do not think I should be taking pay cuts to save jobs in an industry of cycles.

Neither of them ever answers the question about "WHEN DID IT BECOMES THE UNIONS JOB TO HIRE, FIRE, or DETERMINE workforce size? That is managements job, not the UNIONS JOB.

This whole philosophy is so out there, it is stupid for UNION MEN to even being argueing about it.

 

[700UW]

If you look around every union in the industry at one carrier or another has suffered concessions, its the industry, there is not a level playing field with upstarts and LCCs vs Legacies.

 

[nitronutt]

Its the process of the "craft union" trading jobs for wages. A part of the negotiation process, each job has an assigned value. So a series of give and take, outsourcing has an assigned value. Im sure you understand these basics. Decisions are being made to help each and every TWU member

 

[xUT]

If you look around every union in the industry at one carrier or another has suffered concessions, its the industry, there is not a level playing field with upstarts and LCCs vs Legacies.

So everyone should just give up?
Concede that the 'system' is stacked against us and accept whatever the 'master' wants.
IMHO, that's what you have been preaching through your 2 BK's.

You are a defeatist, Give up before the fight. Sage advice.
Thank GOD that our troops do not think like you!

B) xUT

 

[Buck]

Its the process of the "craft union" trading jobs for wages. A part of the negotiation process, each job has an assigned value. So a series of give and take, outsourcing has an assigned value. Im sure you understand these basics. Decisions are being made to help each and every TWU member

Its the process of "industrial unionism" trading jobs for wages, pensions and other benefits.

A part of the negotiation process, each job has an assigned value. So a series of give and take, outsourcing has an assigned value. I'm sure you understand these basics. Decisions are being made to help each and every TWU member except those at the international who are not affected by this process.

 

[Overspeed]

You brought up expansionism in Europe in WWII.

Feel free to stay on the topic course at anytime.

In response to Manifest Destiny. I still don't get the correlation. No big.

I'll do a course correction to HDG 250.

 

[TWU informer]

Its the process of the "craft union" trading jobs for wages. A part of the negotiation process, each job has an assigned value. So a series of give and take, outsourcing has an assigned value. Im sure you understand these basics. Decisions are being made to help each and every TWU member

It is not the Union's job to hire, fire, and set work force amounts.
What part of that do you NOT Understand?

 

[Overspeed]

So now anyone seeking change and a better Union than the TWU is equal to:
Hitler
Chinese
Germans
and
Reagan

Amazing, I am simply a United States of America citizen using my right under Federal Law to choose the representation of my choice.

The issue is simple.

Many TWU members despise the TWU and want out.
The AFL-CIO has a no-raid clause that limits the options available.
If you want to talk about anti-American, speak with James C Little, and the AFL-CIO

And maybe the TWU saving all those jobs in exchange for concessions, when there is not enough work to keep them busy is why AA is in Bankruptcy to begin with. If you want to or must assign blame, go there first. Carty let the Unions run the Company, and this is the path the TWU chose.

Dave calm down. Buck and I got in to a little bit of rabbit hole.

The fact remains, AMFA represented 25,000 at the beginning of 2000 and within five years represent less than 3,000. Those 25,000 signed up to a set of ideals and structure that promised quality representation and upgrading of their craft. 90% of them bet their jobs and lost out. Your hero Delle trotted off with a nice $500K annuity and the Seham law firm got a ton of cash over the years they professionally negotiated and defended all those great CBAs at AS, UA, and NW. They have already buckled at WN by allowing four lines of work to outsourced to El Salvador all the while not being under the threat of BK or even advocating a single job action in protest. Face it Dave, AMFA sucks big time and the facts prove it. While the TWU, IBT, and IAM are not perfect they never destroyed so perfectly and so dramatically so many jobs in so few years as AMFA professionally did in less than ten years at the wheel. AMFA represented more AMTs at the airlines in the US than anyone for one very brief moment. AMFA has not earned to be on this pedestal you have put them on, quite the contrary, the need to be buried for all eternity under it before they do any more damage.

 

[TWU informer]

If you look around every union in the industry at one carrier or another has suffered concessions, its the industry, there is not a level playing field with upstarts and LCCs vs Legacies.

I agree the farce comes from the fact that the deregulation laws, combined with the bankruptcy laws amount to an oxy-moron.
The laws contradict each other.
And then the farce of the AFL-CIO belief that the political arena is where organized labor fault has failed to address this problem.

Deregulation is suppose to create competition, and the bankruptcy law insures that those that cannot compete keep hanging around. So instead of creating a stronger more competetive industry, good paying US jobs get outsourced to reduce the cost.

 

[Overspeed]

It is not the Union's job to hire, fire, and set work force amounts.
What part of that do you NOT Understand?

Scope and work classification sets the work that is going to be done by union members covered under the CBA. So yes the union does have a say in how many AMTs need to be hired.

Where did anyone say anything about the union firing people? The TWU has never done that, no individual members dropping a dime...

You espouse the virtues of a "professional craft union" yet you know nothing of what a collective bargaining agreement covers and how that applies to the members that are covered by it. "Sign a card but I have no idea what I am talking about."

You are hilarious Dave. A riot!

 

[TWU informer]

Dave calm down. Buck and I got in to a little bit of rabbit hole.

The fact remains, AMFA represented 25,000 at the beginning of 2000 and within five years represent less than 3,000. Those 25,000 signed up to a set of ideals and structure that promised quality representation and upgrading of their craft. 90% of them bet their jobs and lost out. Your hero Delle trotted off with a nice $500K annuity and the Seham law firm got a ton of cash over the years they professionally negotiated and defended all those great CBAs at AS, UA, and NW. They have already buckled at WN by allowing four lines of work to outsourced to El Salvador all the while not being under the threat of BK or even advocating a single job action in protest. Face it Dave, AMFA sucks big time and the facts prove it. While the TWU, IBT, and IAM are not perfect they never destroyed so perfectly and so dramatically so many jobs in so few years as AMFA professionally did in less than ten years at the wheel. AMFA represented more AMTs at the airlines in the US than anyone for one very brief moment. AMFA has not earned to be on this pedestal you have put them on, quite the contrary, the need to be buried for all eternity under it before they do any more damage.

What makes your statement the babble of the ignoramous is that the AMFA is a Democratic Union, the choices made come from the membership and not the Union Entity itself.

What you are claiming is that the memberhsip needs some dictatorship overhead to protect them from themselves.
Not only is that an Anti-American belief, I think it is dead wrong and you are ignorant.

It is not AMFA that is destroying the profession. It is the belief that the Poltical Arena is where our salvation is at, while the AFL-CIO steals our money, plays that game, and fails us all.

It is failure in the direction of organized labor, not AMFA.

I believe we could reverse this trend if ALL Mechanics were in one Union. The AMFA idea and the only Union advocating that idea. You and others are claiming AMFA is failing while you refuse to join into and try the idea. Think big and outside your little world. Try joining in the idea and get everyone in one non-AFL-CIO union and lets see what happens then.

 

[Overspeed]

I agree the farce comes from the fact that the deregulation laws, combined with the bankruptcy laws amount to an oxy-moron.
The laws contradict each other.
And then the farce of the AFL-CIO belief that the political arena is where organized labor fault has failed to address this problem.

Deregulation is suppose to create competition, and the bankruptcy law insures that those that cannot compete keep hanging around. So instead of creating a stronger more competetive industry, good paying US jobs get outsourced to reduce the cost.

Concessions are one thing but wholesale retreat and not even defending your own scope clause at UA is criminal. Allowing 90% of your membership's jobs to be outsourced, bravo. It's deregulations fault. Was AS in BK when they closed OAK? Was the CBA abrogated at UA when they outsourced all those jobs to AMECO? Uh, no.

 

[nitronutt]

The TWU has done a Great job keeping work in house. The TWU RO committee has worked hard to keep work in tulsa and has brought a lot work back in. The simple facts are that we do more work in house than any other airline. The simple fact is that the RO committee has saved jobs over the years due to their diligence.

 

[nitronutt]

Overspeed you are on point again !!

 

[Overspeed]

What makes your statement the babble of the ignoramous is that the AMFA is a Democratic Union, the choices made come from the membership and not the Union Entity itself.

What you are claiming is that the memberhsip needs some dictatorship overhead to protect them from themselves.
Not only is that an Anti-American belief, I think it is dead wrong and you are ignorant.

It is not AMFA that is destroying the profession. It is the belief that the Poltical Arena is where our salvation is at, while the AFL-CIO steals our money, plays that game, and fails us all.

It is failure in the direction of organized labor, not AMFA.

I believe we could reverse this trend is ALL Mechanics were in one Union. The AMFA idea and the only Union advocating that idea. You and others are claiming AMFA is failing while you refuse to join into and try the idea. Think big and outside your little world.

So they voted not to defend the CBA outsourcing language at UA? They voted to not defend the AS CBA when the OAK base was shutdown? Really? That's not what the record shows. That was a professional side step the issue in those circumstances by the mighty craft union AMFA. Not even Morris Day and the Time could side step that smooth away from that grievance.

I am looking outside my world at the AMFA craft union world and I see bodies on the floor. About 23,000 of them who paid dues and bought in to the sign a yellow card and we will be rich concept.

No not dictatorship. How is changing your constitution so one guy (Delle) gets a $500K annuity and then taking it out so no one else gets it democratic and accountable to the membership. They lost their jobs and he got an nice check. Sounds like a golden parachute.

So AMFA is powerless against the political machine? So why sign a card? It won't help, you just said it.

I wouldn't say that AMFA is the only one. Isn't the TWU starting an alliance with the IBT? That achieves in large part the same goal as dumping our union and getting a new one that is affiliated with no one else in the industry. If we are in an alliance with the IBT we represent UA/CO and AA and close to 20,000 members. Go after DL with the IBT and now we control damn near all the major airlines and can work on setting an industry standard top wage earning contract. AMFA now? After their track record? Uh, no.