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Industry Standard Wages

It's pretty simple Dave. AMFA/AMP is an alternative that most have realized has not delivered on its promises. People like you wave the craft union banner as the panacea to the membership's ills however after destroying the jobs of 23,000 the truth is obvious. It doesn't work.

How much does an IBT mechanic at UPS make? That industrial union seems to be kicking your craft union's butt. The TWU industrial union had a deal that was going to make us number two behind WN. Craft union better? Why did they get voted out at UA and replaced by the IBT?

So YOU are now advocating that the Teamsters replace the TWU on AA property?
Is that what I hear you saying?

And it is strange the you claim to speak for "most people", yet the signed card count at the end of week two points to a fact that you nothing about most people. Not even close!

Change is coming and the TWU's days are numbered.
 
I also heard Overspeed promise UPS wages to the TWU membership.
 
So YOU are now advocating that the Teamsters replace the TWU on AA property?
Is that what I hear you saying?
... snip

Sorry Dave - he can't do that (couldn't resist).

His job is to deflect the interest from AMFA to the ibt with the intent of neither of them winning and falling to the incumbent.
 
So YOU are now advocating that the Teamsters replace the TWU on AA property?
Is that what I hear you saying?

And it is strange the you claim to speak for "most people", yet the signed card count at the end of week two points to a fact that you nothing about most people. Not even close!

Change is coming and the TWU's days are numbered.
Nope. Not advocating changing unions. Pointing out that AMFA has failed to deliver on its promises and the industrial union the IBT stomped AMFA in negotiating the highest pay. WN and UPS outsource near the same rate yet WN pays less. Has AMFA really negotiated a contract for the AMTs at WN? No but they extended the IBT contract twice on pay rates but gave away more latitude to management to outsource. Capped headcount per aircraft at a fixed number and agreed to allow outsourcing out of the country all while not under the threat of BK. In fact WN has been the only consistently profitable airline and they didn't even think of threatening a job action. And AS, great job there. Again, they are a power player in the Northwest US and they did what? Agreed to interest based arbitration and a no strike clause. Yep, AMFA is tough. Boy are they tough...talking that is.
 
Sorry Dave - he can't do that (couldn't resist).

His job is to deflect the interest from AMFA to the ibt with the intent of neither of them winning and falling to the incumbent.

What is more awesome is that he and others believe that we are that gullible. That must be why they are of the opinion that we need to be saved from ourselves. ROFL

Actually all that has happened is a major increase in card signing.

They always have been our best organizers.
 
Nope. Not advocating changing unions. Pointing out that AMFA has failed to deliver on its promises and the industrial union the IBT stomped AMFA in negotiating the highest pay. WN and UPS outsource near the same rate yet WN pays less. Has AMFA really negotiated a contract for the AMTs at WN? No but they extended the IBT contract twice on pay rates but gave away more latitude to management to outsource. Capped headcount per aircraft at a fixed number and agreed to allow outsourcing out of the country all while not under the threat of BK. In fact WN has been the only consistently profitable airline and they didn't even think of threatening a job action. And AS, great job there. Again, they are a power player in the Northwest US and they did what? Agreed to interest based arbitration and a no strike clause. Yep, AMFA is tough. Boy are they tough...talking that is.

AMFAs not near as "windy" as you....

UP makes more money in 1 qtr than WN does all year. Even your beloved TWU could sweet talk $50/hr for the mechs there. You forgot about non-union FX, who stomps a mud hole in about every union contract out there-save UPS' MX deal.

Your day of reckoning is coming. AMR is going to get there outsourcing figure whether it's through TWU, AMFA or the girl scouts. They MUST to remain competitive. Make no mistake....
Then the only question is, who do we mechs want to negotiate on our behalf?.....the ind "catch all" of ya unions or a craft union rep only mech & related? It's a fricken no brainier to me -and most I speak with.
You boys have pretty much run your course here at AA M&R....& MANY have come to realize this(finally), and feel anything would be an improvement!
 
AMFAs not near as "windy" as you....

UP makes more money in 1 qtr than WN does all year. Even your beloved TWU could sweet talk $50/hr for the mechs there. You forgot about non-union FX, who stomps a mud hole in about every union contract out there-save UPS' MX deal.

Your day of reckoning is coming. AMR is going to get there outsourcing figure whether it's through TWU, AMFA or the girl scouts. They MUST to remain competitive. Make no mistake....
Then the only question is, who do we mechs want to negotiate on our behalf?.....the ind "catch all" of ya unions or a craft union rep only mech & related? It's a fricken no brainier to me -and most I speak with.
You boys have pretty much run your course here at AA M&R....& MANY have come to realize this(finally), and feel anything would be an improvement!
So you derive joy from seeing more outsourcing? Okay.

FDX is only raising wages because the AFL-CIO has argued so hard against their union busting tactics and to get FDX RLA status. DL and FDX pay high wages because they don't want a union. If there wasn't a union at UPS raising the bar then they wouldn't pay as much as they do. FDX workers get an indirect benefit. If all airlines were non-union I highly doubt you would e the wages you do. You could try it though. See what happens.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042703940.html

Day of reckoning? Like I said, I will still working here for a long time at AA just maybe not on days.
 
So you derive joy from seeing more outsourcing? Okay.
I don't think he derives joy from outsourcing; rather, he's not so stupid as to think that the mechanics of one airline can successfully prevent that airline from doing what each and every other airline is doing: outsourcing a majority of heavy airframe overhauls (D checks or Heavy C checks depending on the airline). With you or without you, AA will outsource a portion of its heavy airframe overhauls. Either that, or it goes out of business. Understandably, those who pine for a repeat of Eastern long for a liquidation of AA. Most do not.

Over the past ten years, posters on this website have posted (and I'm paraphrasing here) that "it's management's job to manage the airline to try to make money and the employees should just do their assigned task."

Despite the realization that it's management's job to manage the business, contracts that prevent outsourcing also prevent management from "managing the business." Worrying about the number of jobs and not focusing on increasing pay has worked out real well for the AA mechanics, wouldn't you say? Nearly last in hourly compensation but there sure are a lot of warm bodies paying dues. As has been oft-repeated here for the last 10 years: the real failure of the TWU at AA was in embracing Arpey's failed strategy of keeping all heavy maintenance inhouse. Instead, effective leaders would have explored ways to increase compensation by offering to accept the WN contract, lock, stock and barrel. Too many in the TWU fantasized about getting WN/UPS pay for all 11,500 AA mechanics and related. Stupid fools. So where are you today? Staring down the barrel of outsourcing (with thousands of jobs lost) plus the lowest hourly pay in the industry once US and UA mechanics get their raises.

Well done, TWU. Well done. If I were a mechanic for AA, I'd be calling for heads on pikes.
 
I don't think he derives joy from outsourcing; rather, he's not so stupid as to think that the mechanics of one airline can successfully prevent that airline from doing what each and every other airline is doing: outsourcing a majority of heavy airframe overhauls (D checks or Heavy C checks depending on the airline). With you or without you, AA will outsource a portion of its heavy airframe overhauls. Either that, or it goes out of business. Understandably, those who pine for a repeat of Eastern long for a liquidation of AA. Most do not.

Over the past ten years, posters on this website have posted (and I'm paraphrasing here) that "it's management's job to manage the airline to try to make money and the employees should just do their assigned task."

Despite the realization that it's management's job to manage the business, contracts that prevent outsourcing also prevent management from "managing the business." Worrying about the number of jobs and not focusing on increasing pay has worked out real well for the AA mechanics, wouldn't you say? Nearly last in hourly compensation but there sure are a lot of warm bodies paying dues. As has been oft-repeated here for the last 10 years: the real failure of the TWU at AA was in embracing Arpey's failed strategy of keeping all heavy maintenance inhouse. Instead, effective leaders would have explored ways to increase compensation by offering to accept the WN contract, lock, stock and barrel. Too many in the TWU fantasized about getting WN/UPS pay for all 11,500 AA mechanics and related. Stupid fools. So where are you today? Staring down the barrel of outsourcing (with thousands of jobs lost) plus the lowest hourly pay in the industry once US and UA mechanics get their raises.

Well done, TWU. Well done. If I were a mechanic for AA, I'd be calling for heads on pikes.

When you're the national salesman and spokesman for the stupid fools at the INTL, it's your job to promote jobs over pay......good job Overspeed, you're doing a great job of promoting change. The membership has FINALLY come to the realization of how corrupt the TWU and AFL-CIO labor organizations really are. Your "jobs over pay" stance will drive the TWU membership to AMFA.....without question! Just face it, the TWU INTL leadership are nothing more than baffoons, idiots and greedy bastards that can care less what you get paid, only the number of members paying for their high salaries, no-cost medical and lucrative pensions. It's all coming back to haunt the TWU leadership, and now they're scrambling to save their arses. Using tactics and other organizations to thrwart the AMFA card drive. Only this time, I truly believe Tulsa will fall to AMFA, AFW will go AMFA, and the Line is a for sure AMFA.......guess what, AMFA will prevail, whether YOU like it or not!
Bottom line, the more you talk.....the more AMFA cards get signed, and that's a good thing!
 
I don't think he derives joy from outsourcing; rather, he's not so stupid as to think that the mechanics of one airline can successfully prevent that airline from doing what each and every other airline is doing: outsourcing a majority of heavy airframe overhauls (D checks or Heavy C checks depending on the airline). With you or without you, AA will outsource a portion of its heavy airframe overhauls. Either that, or it goes out of business. Understandably, those who pine for a repeat of Eastern long for a liquidation of AA. Most do not.

Over the past ten years, posters on this website have posted (and I'm paraphrasing here) that "it's management's job to manage the airline to try to make money and the employees should just do their assigned task."

Despite the realization that it's management's job to manage the business, contracts that prevent outsourcing also prevent management from "managing the business." Worrying about the number of jobs and not focusing on increasing pay has worked out real well for the AA mechanics, wouldn't you say? Nearly last in hourly compensation but there sure are a lot of warm bodies paying dues. As has been oft-repeated here for the last 10 years: the real failure of the TWU at AA was in embracing Arpey's failed strategy of keeping all heavy maintenance inhouse. Instead, effective leaders would have explored ways to increase compensation by offering to accept the WN contract, lock, stock and barrel. Too many in the TWU fantasized about getting WN/UPS pay for all 11,500 AA mechanics and related. Stupid fools. So where are you today? Staring down the barrel of outsourcing (with thousands of jobs lost) plus the lowest hourly pay in the industry once US and UA mechanics get their raises.

Well done, TWU. Well done. If I were a mechanic for AA, I'd be calling for heads on pikes.

Sad facts, but it is the truth, you are so correct, NO UNION is stopping this trend in the industry and even the last best attempt by the TWU to use concessions for jobs will not stop that fact.

Now we see, the mighty TWU is really not mighty afterall. And instead of holding the TWU accountable for the years of lies and misrepreentation, the TWU sympathizers still want to point the finger at other organizations and not hold their own union to the same standards. The Mechanics at AA are prepared and will take back our profession from this lethal bacteria called industrial unionism.

The AFL-CIO mighty poltical arena machine is a farce, has not stopped anything related to the outsource of American jobs. The only AFL-CIO political influence that I have witnessed in 28+ years is the prevention of an election in 2003 that would have created a change of direction then instead of now.

Many backshop workers at the Tulsa Base still want to hold onto the idea that AA will not outsource the work. Instead, we should be working towards protecting our interest when that happens, instead burying the head and hoping it will not happen.

It is time to being to change the culture at the maintenance base to a more professional workforce, one that is promoted in the communities as prideful workers instead trying to buy recognition via sponsorship and advertisement at local sporting teams and related events. What a complete waste of good hard earned union dues. Instead of spending our dues money on politics and entertainment, we need to transition to a culture of hard working and respectable employees that earn their keep. Just go read the comments on the Local KOTV, KJRH, or FOX23 websites that are associated with the AA bankruptcty. A large number of local citizens view us as lazy, overpaid, greedy scumbags. I want to belong to a Union that will promote professional conduct at work, and in the media work to educate the public about what we do and how well we do it. I am tired of belonging to a sinking ship that has no leadership.

I am tired of being part of something that is utterly inadequate and harmful instead of advancing and professional!
 
It is time to being to change the culture at the maintenance base to a more professional workforce, one that is promoted in the communities as prideful workers instead trying to buy recognition via sponsorship and advertisement at local sporting teams and related events. What a complete waste of good hard earned union dues. Instead of spending our dues money on politics and entertainment, we need to transition to a culture of hard working and respectable employees that earn their keep. Just go read the comments on the Local KOTV, KJRH, or FOX23 websites that are associated with the AA bankruptcty. A large number of local citizens view us as lazy, overpaid, greedy scumbags. I want to belong to a Union that will promote professional conduct at work, and in the media work to educate the public about what we do and how well we do it. I am tired of belonging to a sinking ship that has no leadership.

I am tired of being part of something that is utterly inadequate and harmful instead of advancing and professional!


If this was done maybe AA could turn a profit doing overhaul like Delta and Lufthansa turn a profit...
 
Sad facts, but it is the truth, you are so correct, NO UNION is stopping this trend in the industry and even the last best attempt by the TWU to use concessions for jobs will not stop that fact.


Many backshop workers at the Tulsa Base still want to hold onto the idea that AA will not outsource the work. Instead, we should be working towards protecting our interest when that happens, instead burying the head and hoping it will not happen.

AA basically wants the "ability" to eliminate most of the jobs and use that ability to keep our wages and benefits at the bottom of the industry.

Court was an elightening experience and it only proved that voting NO was the right move for us. . They admitted that they did not have RFBs for the work from potential vendors and basically guessed how much outsourcing would cost. So its not as if they could turn around on June 22nd and cut 4600 heads.

The only work that we hear they have made arrangements for are the Widebodies, and that will take time as well.

If we had signed agreed to the ultimatum we would have given them 6 years to find places to do the work we currently do.

As far as outsourcing the company was clear that the percentages only applied to work that we currently do in house, work that we currently outsource or never did, such as A320 and B787s would not be part of that percentage. In court they stated that the A320 would be done at "Market Rates". What that means is open to interpretation and in the media they were quoted as saying that the 787 would be outsourced, we may get some of the Line work. Now all this has to be looked at carefully because, whats hype and whats not? We need to keep in mind that Negotiations is not confined to the table, and the company is going to continue to try and create as much uncertainty as possible in the hopes that they can still walk away with everything they want even if its with just 50% +1.

What we must do as mechanics, regardless of where you stand as far as who should be representing us because 6 years is 6 years and once in place we cant change it, is remain focused and not accept anything less than what United has.

The NO vote has already paid dividends and it will be up to us to capitalize on that by continueing to vote no, regardless of what the court decides until we get something that we are told nobody ever got before ( but the same people who tell us that admit they have never seen a Judge ask another to mediate either, that they never saw a company with $4 billion in cash file C-11 and that they never saw a company in BK come back with a plan to get 17% profits either). The fact that AA filed BK does not change the fact that we need substantial raises just to get us back up to market rate and anything less is unacceptable. One of the things that the NO vote did was force the company to make mistakes in their arguement to the Judge. They built their arguement for abrogation based upon Labor Costs anmd they said that when looking at labor costs that we could not consider the cost of outsourcing. So that changes the "ASK" and the value of it considerably. If the cost of outsourcing is not factored in then under the ASK AA is looking at closer to $1billion in Labor Cost savings from maintenence, not $212 million.

The fact is if they outsource the widebodies, which the union has agreed to, that alone wipes out any labor cost disadvantage that AA has. All the rest was Gross Overkill.

So if we are also losing our Pension, Retireee Medical, putting us way below par compared to our peers at other carriers then there is money for wage increases, restoration of sick time, Holidays and vacation.

Remember the company made the arguement that we should not factor in the cost of outsourcing when dealing with labor costs, they said we have to compare"Apples to Apples".

They admitted that when they compared our Maintenence labor costs to competitors they did not factor in what competitors pay for outsourcing. They used those so called "Apples to Apples "comparisons in court to try and justify their motion to abrogate, that was their arguement to the Judge, so I say fine, lets not factor it in and use those monies to bring us back up to industry standards.
 
If this was done maybe AA could turn a profit doing overhaul like Delta and Lufthansa turn a profit...
LH has a total separate MRO division and DL outsources its own HMV and in-sources third party work.
 
LH has a total separate MRO division and DL outsources its own HMV and in-sources third party work.

And the TWU had many separate divisions. Our monies go to those divisions to subsidize each other. The TWU International is a company within the AFL-CIO corporation. Maybe those companies within the AFL-CIO corporate, could outsource some of their jobs to maintain a cost competitive business. Let's outsource the ATD to keep the system working.
 

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