Iraq - what do we do now?

[Flying Titan]

Delldude -
I couldn't find the documentary you referenced, but I did see a several references like this one from mideastweb.org...

The allied attack was hampered by the fact that Turkey did not allow US forces to enter Iraq from its territory, virtually eliminating a northern front in the first days. However, it is now believed that this was a ruse to keep Iraqi attention away from the main attack, which came from the south.

Mideastweb.org Iraq War Page

As I mentioned earlier, assuming it was a ruse, then this explains why it unfolded the way it did. I'm still a little bit skeptical about this though because I can't find where any of the "insiders" have called it a ruse. As you correctly pointed out, Gen. Schwarzkopf used a similar tactic in the Persian Gulf War - but he and Powell and others spelled it out not long after the invasion. I don't see where that's happened yet regarding Turkey and the Iraq War invasion.

 

[UAL_TECH]

It was all a ruse set up by our military.It was covered in a documentary around Thanksgiving weekend I think,on Discovery,TLC or History channel.I saw it but can't
remember the exact channel.It may have been a show called Sworn to Secrecy.It was very informing.They (us)did employ similar deceptions through CNN and the news media in the first Gulf War under Stormin'Norman with great success.
I remember the incidents but thought it was about stepping on Iraqi toes at the time of trying to gain their confidence.
Probably movement on the military side and executive branch all helped.I'd say if we were privy to inside info,they both had a hand in the demise we have today.

Secrets of War

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

I agree completely!!!

Of course, the hard part is how. Do you care to offer some details? What do you see as acceptable conditions to declare victory - western-style democracy? any government that can maintain law and order? something else?

Tactically, what do you see as the best way to achieve victory?

In the "good ol' days" before political correctnes spread its vile poison into our hearts and minds, victory was achieved militarily by the complete and total annihalation of the enemy's ability to wage war, the absolute breaking of the enemy's will, the complete control of information and intellegence, AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TO ENDURE ALL HARDSHIPS TO ENSURE VICTORY!

 

[delldude]

Another boring day in Iraq

Semper Fi guys

 

[UAL_TECH]

AND THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE TO ENDURE ALL HARDSHIPS TO ENSURE VICTORY!

Now THAT IS FUNNY :blink:

 

[Garfield1966]

I am curious.

Who here thinks that if a nation (your choice who) were to invade the US and occupy our lands and try to impose a different form of government that they would be successful? My opinion is that they would not. My opinion is that the US would be a mirror image of what Iraq is right now. There would be underground insurgents making strikes at the occupying forces on a regular basis. The puppet government installed by the occupying force would not have popular support and the day the last boot of the occupying forces left US soil, all hell would break loose.

I suspect that the difference between those who want more troops or a different plan in Iraq as opposed to those of us who want the US out of Iraq is that some feel winning is an option and others feel that winning is a pipe dream. I view the question above as bell weather of sorts. If you believe the US could be forced to turn away from democracy then you believe Iraq can be saved and we can win. If you believe that the US would never accept anything less than the freedom we have (or for some the freedom that we once had) then you believe that Iraq is a lost cause and that the only way any nation changes is from with in.

I am of the belief that Iraq is not winnable. The people of Iraq will never accept something that is forced on them. It does not fit their society or their culture. They will fight us till we leave and once we leave, they will fight each other.

 

[KCFlyer]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but Merry Christmas to all of you, regardless of your political leanings!

 

[delldude]

And a Merry Christmas too all too!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

I am curious.

Who here thinks that if a nation (your choice who) were to invade the US and occupy our lands and try to impose a different form of government that they would be successful? My opinion is that they would not. My opinion is that the US would be a mirror image of what Iraq is right now. There would be underground insurgents making strikes at the occupying forces on a regular basis. The puppet government installed by the occupying force would not have popular support and the day the last boot of the occupying forces left US soil, all hell would break loose.

I suspect that the difference between those who want more troops or a different plan in Iraq as opposed to those of us who want the US out of Iraq is that some feel winning is an option and others feel that winning is a pipe dream. I view the question above as bell weather of sorts. If you believe the US could be forced to turn away from democracy then you believe Iraq can be saved and we can win. If you believe that the US would never accept anything less than the freedom we have (or for some the freedom that we once had) then you believe that Iraq is a lost cause and that the only way any nation changes is from with in.

I am of the belief that Iraq is not winnable. The people of Iraq will never accept something that is forced on them. It does not fit their society or their culture. They will fight us till we leave and once we leave, they will fight each other.

They already ARE fighting each other. 90 percent of the violence committed over there is MUSLIM VS MUSLIM, and its occurring in only a small percentage of the central region of the country. Most of the troops I talk to tell me they are, for the most part, warmly received by the Average Iraqi. But 20 percent of the population, as well as the huge influx of foreign (Iranian and Syrian)are doing every thing possible to ensure our defeat. If your analogy were to be used, it would be like Canada and Mexico sending clandestine troops in, killing thousands of Americans, then convince the invading country it was a civil war between the catholics and protestants.
To be fair, almost ALL Iraqis want ALL foreign forces out of their country. They know, however, that should the US leave, the resulting slaughter would make Cambodia and post Siagon Viet Nam look like just a simple mugging in the park.

 

[Flying Titan]

I'll add my voice. Merry Christmas to all here. I hope all enjoyed a wonderful day!

 

[Leto2]

I am curious.

Who here thinks that if a nation (your choice who) were to invade the US and occupy our lands and try to impose a different form of government that they would be successful? My opinion is that they would not. My opinion is that the US would be a mirror image of what Iraq is right now. There would be underground insurgents making strikes at the occupying forces on a regular basis. The puppet government installed by the occupying force would not have popular support and the day the last boot of the occupying forces left US soil, all hell would break loose.

False analogy.

The difference being that almost all Americans support our democratic form of government. I may be wrong, but I think that the majority of Iraqis support a democracy. Remember that the Saddam-led Sunnis are the minority in Iraq. That means that the majority probably DIDN'T support that dictatorship government--thus the celebration when we took Baghdad.

Nevertheless, the Sunnis and Iranians and Syrians are still around in Iraq and there are enough of them that don't support the government that they cause plenty of ruckus.

Perhaps a better (although still very imperfect) analogy would be America's fight for independence. There were still lots of Loyalists in America that didn't want the change. Fortunately back then guerilla tactics weren't as prevalent. Also, Saddam and his minority had more power than the majority of Iraqis, so they needed help and couldn't fight for independence on their own. (When they tried they got gassed.)


By the way, Merry Christmas everyone, a bit late. Happy New Year as well! Participating in this forum has been fun for me.

 

[Garfield1966]

Not sure what you are drawing that conclusion on. Iraq along with the rest of the Middle East have no experience with any form of democracy (as far as I am aware). They has been no indication that they are interested in a US styled government. From what I can tell, theocracy is the word of the day over there.

Aside from that the analogy was not used to indicate for the support or lack there of for any specific type of government, rather to indicate that a foreign occupation force will not be able to implement any government on a imprisoned people. Just as with most children, when parent tells them to ‘do this’ the child’s first instinct is to resist it because someone else wants them to do it. If the child were to come up with the same idea, they will gladly do it. To my knowledge, no country has successfully imposed it’s will on an imprisoned society. Russia fell from with in. The English were booted out of India, and the list goes on. No nation on this earth could come into the US and impose it’s will on the people. If the Iraqis want a new government, they will need to do it from with in. We will never be able to force it on them. The west represents everything they hate. Our culture is alien to them. There is no order, our morals as you pointed out in the other thread are bankrupt. Why would they want to emulate us?

 

[Leto2]

The US entered Iraq, destroyed Saddam, and then told the Iraqis to form a government. I'm sure there was some arm-twisting, but the Iraqis are the ones that drafted the constitution, held elections, etc. The different groups of Iraqis even debated the different points of the constitution.

I'd say that their actions have shown that they ARE interested in a US-style form of government.

They are not an "imprisoned people". We don't even want to be there any more. We are training their soldiers and police so that they can fend for themselves.

You act as if we are a tyranical people and that the Iraqis have lost their liberty. Although you may believe that to some degree, it's simply not the case.

 

[Garfield1966]

Let me get this straight. We, the US, have in excess of 100,000 troops in Iraq. We have constructed permanent bases in Iraq. We hand picked the leaders of the country. You mean to tell me that if the Iraqis decided to install a theocracy in Iraq that was unfriendly to the US, we would say sure… go for it and remove our troops? The US has and will dictate every move done in Iraq. If it goes against our interests, the US will not allow it.

 

[local 12 proud]

Those Damn Iraqi special forces, don't they know that its all a failure and that success is just a pipe dream.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061228/wl_nm/..._usa_qaeda_dc_1