Iraq - what do we do now?

[Flying Titan]

Way to completely duck the subject there, Local 12. Of course, that's what you do most of the time -- just shrink into a puddle, start whining and hurling insults at anyone who doesn't agree w/ you.

BTW, I have been there and done that. Don't presume that you know a thing about me or my background.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Again...two-thirds of those who responded to the survey went and fought in Iraq or Afghanistan. Those are the people who put on the uniform. That gives them far more credibility than you'll ever have. Those are the people you're insulting!

What makes a poll "pantywaist"? Oh, that's right...you don't agree with it so it can't possibly represent the views of real Americans!

You're just one of those fools who thinks that anyone who dares to disagree with your delusional point of view must be some un-american pinko commie. Way to go Archie Bunker! Fact is, they're far more American and far more patriotic than you'll ever be - no matter how much you try to symbolically wrap yourself in the flag.

If you haven't run into anyone in uniform who has problems with the war in Iraq, then you don't know very many people in the military -- or they're just feeding you the line of crap that you want to hear. Fact is, if you really know the men and women who've been over there...and really talk to them, then it won't take long for you realize what a cluster #### it's been for quite some time.

BTW, I'm sure the poll's 66-percent represents a whole lot more people than your "100-percent."

I speak on a daily basis with MANY returning vets, as well as my daughter, who is currently awaiting orders quite possibly to the sandbox. There are SOME who do not agree with the way the war is being administered, but their PRIMARY complaint about it is not that they disagree with the war in principle, but rather in the way politics back home prohibits them from fighting the war the way they know how.
MANY years ago, I was in a pub having an adult beverage or two swapping war stories with this "salty" old grunt. He had spent many tours fighting a terrorist style war, and had this to say. " This war will never be won until the politicians get out of the way, and let us soldiers on the ground fight the way we were trained and know how to fight it!" Ironically, this wasnt a US soldier talking about Viet Nam or the middle east. He was a member of the Royal Regiment of Wales, and was speaking about his tours fighting terrorism in Northern Ireland. It would seem some problems involved in mixing politics and warfighting are universal. It would also seem we dont learn a DAMN thing from history. The US military did not lose a SINGLE major battle in the ENTIRE 11 years we fought in Viet Nam. Its odd how the people who are so quick to compare the two conflicts completely miss the most GLARING similarity. That of a power hungry opposition media, willing to sacrifice as many American lives as it takes, to further their own political agenda. The Big Media celebrity teleprompter readers of today, who speak with almost unrestrained glee of the 3000th American Warrior killed in Iraq, are the same colledge juornalism punks who spat on our troops in Viet Nam. THAT is the inarguable bare bones truth behind ANY attempt to compare Iraq with Viet Nam.
As to this poll, I would have to question what units they polled, what branch of service, at what time, what MOS's were asked what, how the questions were phrased, what ranks the responders where, and any of a thousand other factors any good marketing or PR hack could use to sway a response to support his or her agenda. Nothing new, been going on since they invented polls.
Even the US military, as honorable as it is, contains its 10 percenters. Every NCO knows EXACTLY who they are, as does any knowledgeable REMF reporter for the Times. It aint that hard to single out these individuals for interviews, polling, and as FALSE examples of typical troop attitudes.

 

[Flying Titan]

Csar -
I agree with most of your post. Your points about the similarities between this war and Vietnam are mostly dead on target. I disagree with you about blaming the media. In both wars, it's the failure of the policy not the news coverage of that failure that undermined our efforts.

You can look back at my earlier posts on this thread to see that I did indeed oppose the war in Iraq from the beginning because the pre-war evidence didn't add up, IMHO. I thought we should have unleashed the full might of the US military on the country that attacked us - Afghanistan, and probably cleaned out some of those ungoverned parts of Pakistan, too.

Having said that, once we were in Iraq, I believed it was important for us to be successful and not leave behind another failed state for the radical Islamists to occupy, like post-war Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, the list of strategic failures in Iraq has been long. (Again, if you would like, see my earlier posts for details.) Like you, I have no doubt that this is what is driving most of the opposition from our military men and women. The military never chooses the war; it executes the war. All they want is to be given a chance to carry it to a successful conclusion...but they haven't been given that chance and they're not happy about it.

From the beginning they haven't been given the proper intelligence, troop levels, equipment, and - most of all - they haven't been given a clear mission. At this point, most of our troops are reduced to being "referees" in a sectarian civil war where you can't tell the players without a scorecard (and there is no scorecard!). That's the recipe for the mess that we're in right now - and the blame doesn't lie with our troops. Can anyone honestly be surprised that so many of them now oppose this cluster?

 

[diogenes]

CSAR,

I agree with the level of ruthlessness needed to pacify Iraq. Bush had a free hand from the get-go, and look at where we are. Given that he is unwilling to be as ruthless as needed, why should we keep dying there?

Rather than admit his error, Bush is now looking to blame Democrats and the media for not letting him 'win'.

IMV, we were never going to be ruthless enough, and should have never started this misadventure.

 

[700IAM]

CSAR,

I agree with the level of ruthlessness needed to pacify Iraq. Bush had a free hand from the get-go, and look at where we are. Given that he is unwilling to be as ruthless as needed, why should we keep dying there?

Rather than admit his error, Bush is now looking to blame Democrats and the media for not letting him 'win'.

IMV, we were never going to be ruthless enough, and should have never started this misadventure.

Boy do I agree. We need another George S. Patton
type to get her done.

 

[local 12 proud]

Boy do I agree. We need another George S. Patton
type to get her done.

I think a General Pershing would be a better fit for beating back Islamofacism.

Just before World War I, there were a number of terrorist attacks against the United States and it’s interests by, you guessed it, Muslim extremists.

So General Pershing captured 50 of the terrorists and had them tied to posts execution style. He then had his men bring in two pigs and slaughter them in front of the, now horrified, terrorists.

The soldiers then soaked their bullets in pigs blood, and proceeded to execute 49 of the terrorists by firing squad.

The soldiers then dug a big hole, dumped in the terrorist’s bodies and covered them in pig blood, entrails, etc.

They let the 50th man go. And for about the next 42 years, there was not a single attack by a muslim fanatic anywhere in the world.

http://www.soldierlife.com/2006/06/26/gene...-jack-pershing/

 

[local 12 proud]

Way to completely duck the subject there, Local 12. Of course, that's what you do most of the time -- just shrink into a puddle, start whining and hurling insults at anyone who doesn't agree w/ you.

I have'nt ducked anything FT, I gave you my experience with the troops i've talked with and they totally contradict that left wing rag you quote.
I shrink from nothing, never have and never will! If my age had not been an issue at the time I would have been on my way to kill some unfriendlies on september 12, 2001.

Your the one just like all the other Liberals who gets all bent when anyone challenges your viewpoint, Dont like it?

TFB.....!

Now lets look at a memo from a Colonel who was/is actually in Iraq in charge had to say about troop morale.

WASHINGTON, May 26, 2006 – The morale of U.S. soldiers in Baghdad is "absolutely tremendous," a U.S. Army commander there said today.
"When I talk to my soldiers on the ground, they're absolutely committed to what we're doing here," Army Col. Michael Beech, commander of 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division, told Pentagon reporters via teleconference from Forward Operating Base Prosperity in central Baghdad.

He said this high morale is reflected in his unit's re-enlistment rate -- 116 percent of goal for first-term soldiers.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2006/20060526_5237.html

BTW, I have been there and done that. Don't presume that you know a thing about me or my background.

I dont think I ever presumed anything, but since you brought it up why don't you share with the board?

 

[diogenes]

Since that type of ruthlessness is not going to happen, what are your sugestions?

 

[local 12 proud]

Since that type of ruthlessness is not going to happen, what are your sugestions?

dio, the best way to win this fight(IMHO) is to remove the politics and media from the theatre and let the best damn fighting force ever assembled on the face of this earth take care of bizzzness!

 

[Flying Titan]

dio, the best way to win this fight(IMHO) is to remove the politics and media from the theatre and let the best damn fighting force ever assembled on the face of this earth take care of bizzzness!

You're right! We're there to build a new democracy so let's just kill 'em all! After all, it's not like there should be any policy considerations when trying to build a new nation! :blink: If it were that easy, even Bush would have figured it out by now!

I dont think I ever presumed anything, but since you brought it up why don't you share with the board?

You have and you continue to presume a lot. Since you claim to have so much knowledge of the US armed forces here are a few clues. I've spent many years of my life in northern Tennessee/southern Kentucky, northern New York, one Asian country (but that would give it away), and in northern Virginia. Based on those stations, you should be able to figure out my background, if you really know as much as you claim.

 

[Flying Titan]

Even Ollie North is abandoning Bush's policy in Iraq...

North's column

 

[local 12 proud]

You're right! We're there to build a new democracy so let's just kill 'em all!

The new Iraqi Government has been Installed, were there at their request to help stabilize and train a military. When you say 'kill 'em all' to whom are you directing that statment?

You have and you continue to presume a lot. Since you claim to have so much knowledge of the US armed forces here are a few clues.

where did I ever 'claim to have so much knowledge' as you put it? seems to me your the one presuming alot. :blink:

I've spent many years of my life in northern Tennessee/southern Kentucky, northern New York, one Asian country (but that would give it away), and in northern Virginia. Based on those stations, you should be able to figure out my background, if you really know as much as you claim.

Frankly I could care less about your background, your the one who brought it up. as far as your travels go, whats that supposed to prove? :huh:

Ive spent time in 22 of the lower 48... whoopty do da!

 

[diogenes]

dio, the best way to win this fight(IMHO) is to remove the politics and media from the theatre and let the best damn fighting force ever assembled on the face of this earth take care of bizzzness!

The politicians who advocated the war have had a free hand (for longer than it took to win WWII) prosecuting it, and still no joy? If Bush can't get it done, who will, and how?

 

[local 12 proud]

The politicians who advocated the war have had a free hand (for longer than it took to win WWII) prosecuting it, and still no joy? If Bush can't get it done, who will, and how?

I've never once said the war was executed flawlessly, in fact mistakes have been made and no one is denying that but unless we and the allies find a way to stabilize that region you can bet your happy arse we will be back in a short time with alot bigger problems on our hands than we now have.

Yea Im pissed because we've lost 3000+ soldiers and my heart is heavy for those left behind, but that is War we lost 3000 in a few short hours on 9/11, granted Iraq may have not been directly responsible or remotely involved but no matter how much you hate this administration, Bush II said from the very outset that the war on terror would be long and difficult.

If you think for one minute that this war being waged against the West is anything but Religious then you my friend are dellusional, you along with many others with their heads buried in the said hoping that if we just leave all will be right with the world are going to get one heck of an eye opener. I just hope it won't cost tens of thousands of innocent American Lives before people come to their collective senses.

 

[diogenes]

I'm not in the least delusional.

Delusional is doing the same thing over and over (like the upcoming 'surge') and expecting different results.

After 9/11 the civilized world was on our side. This administration has pissed the opportunity away to to shape the world more in our image, and we will pay for his ineptitude beyond the span of our lives.