Iraq - what do we do now?

[Flying Titan]

Excerpts of Iraq Study Group Report
Dec 06, 2006
By The Associated Press

Here are excerpts from portions of the Iraq Study Group report

"The situation in Iraq is grave and deteriorating. There is no path that can guarantee success, but the prospects can be improved."
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"Our most important recommendations call for new and enhanced diplomatic and political efforts in Iraq and the region, and a change in the primary mission of U.S. forces in Iraq that will enable the United States to begin to move its combat forces out of Iraq responsibly. We believe that these two recommendations are equally important and reinforce one another. If they are effectively implemented, and if the Iraqi government moves forward with national reconciliation, Iraqis will have an opportunity for a better future, terrorism will be dealt a blow, stability will be enhanced in an important part of the world, and America's credibility, interests and values will be protected."
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"If the situation continues to deteriorate, the consequences could be severe. A slide toward chaos could trigger the collapse of Iraq's government and a humanitarian catastrophe. Neighboring countries could intervene. Sunni-Shia clashes could spread. Al-Qaida could win a propaganda victory and expand its base of operations. The global standing of the United States could be diminished. Americans could become more polarized."
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"During the past nine months we have considered a full range of approaches for moving forward. All have flaws. Our recommended course has shortcomings, but we firmly believe that it includes the best strategies and tactics to positively influence the outcome in Iraq and the region."
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"The United States should immediately launch a new diplomatic offensive to build an international consensus for stability in Iraq and the region. This diplomatic effort should include every country that has an interest in avoiding a chaotic Iraq, including all of Iraq's neighbors. Iraq's neighbors and key states in and outside the region should form a support group to reinforce security and national reconciliation within Iraq, neither of which Iraq can achieve on its own."
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Here are excerpts from a letter from Iraq Study Group co-chairs James A. Baker III and Lee Hamilton:
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"There is no magic formula to solve the problems of Iraq. However, there are actions that can be taken to improve the situation and protect American interests. Many Americans are dissatisfied, not just with the situation in Iraq but with the state of our political debate regarding Iraq. Our political leaders must build a bipartisan approach to bring a responsible conclusion to what is now a lengthy and costly war. Our country deserves a debate that prizes substance over rhetoric, and a policy that is adequately funded and sustainable. The president and Congress must work together. Our leaders must be candid and forthright with the American people in order to win their support."
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"No one can guarantee that any course of action in Iraq at this point will stop sectarian warfare, growing violence or a slide toward chaos. If current trends continue, the potential consequences are severe. Because of the role and responsibility of the United States in Iraq, and the commitments our government has made, the United States has special obligations. Our country must address as best it can Iraq's many problems. The United States has long-term relationships and interests at stake in the Middle East, and needs to stay engaged."
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"In this consensus report, the 10 members of the Iraq Study Group present a new approach because we believe there is a better way forward. All options have not been exhausted. We believe it is still possible to pursue different policies that can give Iraq an opportunity for a better future, combat terrorism, stabilize a critical region of the world and protect America's credibility, interests and values. Our report makes it clear that the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people also must act to achieve a stable and hopeful future."

 

[Garfield1966]

I cannot wait to see how they spin this one.

I am willing to bet that come 2008 nothing much will have changed. Bush painted himself and this country into a corner that he cannot get out of. Iraq will implode once our troops leave. Whether it be tomorrow or 2008 or whenever, when we leave, Iraq will break out in the civil war. Iran and Syria will move in and there will not be a damn thing that anyone can do about it.

Can someone remind me again how this will make us safer?

 

[delldude]

I cannot wait to see how they spin this one.

I am willing to bet that come 2008 nothing much will have changed. Bush painted himself and this country into a corner that he cannot get out of. Iraq will implode once our troops leave. Whether it be tomorrow or 2008 or whenever, when we leave, Iraq will break out in the civil war. Iran and Syria will move in and there will not be a damn thing that anyone can do about it.

Can someone remind me again how this will make us safer?

Yeah ,but the best part is the newly elected Dem gov't will have to deal with these issues quite quickly and decisively or risk losing the White House in '08. 😉

 

[Garfield1966]

You did not do well in your civics class did you? Bush is the commander in Chief. He is the one who is in charge of what changes will occur in Iraq. Congress is in charge of over sigh and the purse strings.

When Bush leaves office in 2008 in disgrace the poor incoming sap will have to deal with the results of his colossal stupidity and incompetence. My hope is for a Rep Pres and a Dem Congress but I know I am not that lucky. We will probably end up with all three branches and have to fix your mess.

While the ability to declare war rests with Congress, troop deployment and the handling of the conflict is under control of the President. SecDef is a Presidential appointee not a congressional appointee. Congress confirms the Presidential appointee. The SecDef reports to the Pres. and notifies Congress of the Presidents intentions.

If Congress had any say in the Iraqi conflict, don’t you think that would be one of the first orders of business for the incoming congress?

Don’t you ever get tired of embarrassing your self? Your understanding of international and government affairs is truly astounding.

 

[delldude]

There you go again,Mr Kitty.
What happens in '08 has a lot to do with what your boys do when they get the football.They haven't even taken over yet and are swooning with glee.

Gee Gar...look in the mirror....can't wait can you?

 

[Ch. 12]

There you go again,Mr Kitty.
What happens in '08 has a lot to do with what your boys do when they get the football.They haven't even taken over yet and are swooning with glee.

Gee Gar...look in the mirror....can't wait can you?

Great response, Dell 🙄 Sounds like you're envious. Going back to Garfield's point which you apparently couldn't get even though it was simple...the armed forces and their actions are lead by their leader...the commander in chief. The pentagon, intelligence services, etc (EVERYTHING involved in a war) are all the EXECUTIVE branch which means the President's responsibility. Congress can propose directions but the commander in chief does not have to abide by them. Congress makes laws...doesn't lead the military. Now would be a great time for Bushie to step up and look really good by "proposing" new strategies in Iraq (no...not cut and run...so don't even go there) and leading a change there. But, predictably, pride and ignorance will be the downfall of the Republicans once again. Poor guy can't change course in any way b/c that would hurt his pride...and he is ignorant to the big picture.

So no, Virginia, Congress doesn't have power to change the course in Iraq...the EXECUTIVE branch must do this. That means the President. Sure...he'll use them as a scapegoat hoping that ignorant factions of US citizens have no idea how our gov't functions but anybody who stayed awake through the "3 branches of gov't" discussions in class knows the truth. It's too bad that this administration feels that the american citizens are so ignorant that they can't see through these things. I guess there are just enough ignorant people to make the propoganda work, though.

 

[Leto2]

Excerpts of Iraq Study Group Report
Dec 06, 2006
By The Associated Press

Here are excerpts from portions of the Iraq Study Group report
.......

OK, so we know that Iraq isn't going well. Besides increasing diplomatic relations what were the suggestions of the Iraq Study Group? It looked like all the quotes there just said that the war isn't going well. I haven't read the whole report, so can someone that's read it tell me if there's actually a plan in it?

Garfield: What degree do you have? Bush has an MBA from Harvard, which is not easy to get no matter who your father is. I think an MBA from Harvard proves he's not "stupid" and "incompetent". But perhaps you have a doctorate or something and therefore he is stupid compared to you. Although I think Bill Clinton was an immoral liar, I still think that he was very smart--smarter than Bush probably.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

So no, Virginia, Congress doesn't have power to change the course in Iraq...the EXECUTIVE branch must do this. That means the President. Sure...he'll use them as a scapegoat hoping that ignorant factions of US citizens have no idea how our gov't functions but anybody who stayed awake through the "3 branches of gov't" discussions in class knows the truth. It's too bad that this administration feels that the american citizens are so ignorant that they can't see through these things. I guess there are just enough ignorant people to make the propoganda work, though.

I pretty much agree with everything in your post. However, I wouldn't characterize Congress as a branch completely devoid of any power to change the course in Iraq. Congress has the "power of the purse."

That phrase may conjure up several images. My favorite is an image of an old, wrinkly, rich woman that no longer has any enforcement power over her adult children; however, she can get those adult children to do many things by simply telling them "I will give you a larger share of my estate if you do X, Y & Z."

Likewise, although it may not use it very often with the President, Congress has the power to influence the President's actions by giving or withholding funds for certain actions.

We will see if the "new Congress" will have an opportunity to use its "power of the purse" during the next two years.

 

[Flying Titan]

Leto -
In all, there were more than 60 recommendations. Key among them include:

- The Group says the goal should still be a unified Iraq and is opposed to splitting the country into three sections; though it acknowledges that this may not be achievable.

- Open diplomatic channels with other countries in the region and enlist them to help stabilize the region. Most notably Syria and Iran. The report indicates Syria is open to this; Iran did not seem to want to cooperate. The report suggests that, if nothing else, Iran be publicly invited so it will have to publicly say "no."

- Shift military emphasis from US-only patrols and missions to more joint Iraqi-US patrols and missions. In other words, mesh most US and Iraqi units together to further their training and to lend legitimacy to the new Iraqi units.

- Increase the emphasis on training Iraqi troops better and faster.

- Set benchmarks for Iraqi government progress (though it does not say specific timetables). If the benchmarks for progress aren't met - the threat of US troop withdrawal should be on the table. Without this pressure, the Iraq Study Group believes the Iraqis will not progress in governing their own country.

- US should plan to pull down many of its troops by 2008, with Iraqi troops and Iraqi police taking over the lead in securing the country.


I've left a lot out, but those are the keys. I'm not in full agreement with the recommendations - but at least it's a plan. The group says that continuing what we've been doing in Iraq will certainly not result in success. At this point, I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Leto2]

Leto -
In all, there were more than 60 recommendations. Key among them include:
.......

Thanks Flying Titan, that's what I was looking for.

I think that training Iraqis should definitely be a priority. I thought it already was, but maybe they should emphasize it even more.
I really doubt that Syria or Iran want a democracy in Iraq. Even if they may act like they do, they are at least partially responsible for fomenting insurgency/terrorism in both Iraq and Lebanon.
I agree with the unified Iraq goal, don't split it up (is that what Iraqis want-to stay unified?).

I don't know if we should have a pullout date--since it will tell the insurgents/terrorists when they should wait to launch a big offensive, but I am certainly for gradual withdrawal. However, I think if we increased the troops in the short term (whatever that is!), it could help kill more of the insurgents/terrorists and also help train the Iraqis faster. Why not send A BUNCH more troops, do a bunch of sweeps, and then bring the extra troops back home after a couple of months? Why not flex some serious US muscle and stop being pansies?

 

[Ch. 12]

Bush has an MBA from Harvard, which is not easy to get no matter who your father is.

Studies released by Business Week earlier this year had proven that it is, in fact, much easier to get a degree from an Ivy League depending on who your father is. Seems that is why flocks of students are avoiding the Ivies now b/c of the favoritism and elitism.

I think an MBA from Harvard proves he's not "stupid" and "incompetent".

To equate education attained to competence is a big mistake. There is no correlation. Some of the least educated people in the world have been the most competent (Bill Gates) while those with high degrees from high institutions are often very incompetent. There is no correlation, though.

 

[Leto2]

To equate education attained to competence is a big mistake. There is no correlation. Some of the least educated people in the world have been the most competent (Bill Gates) while those with high degrees from high institutions are often very incompetent. There is no correlation, though.

Wow, NO CORRELATION between education and competence. We sure waste a lot of money on education. :down: I guess an education is worthless if it doesn't make you more competent.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

To equate education attained to competence is a big mistake. There is no correlation. Some of the least educated people in the world have been the most competent (Bill Gates) while those with high degrees from high institutions are often very incompetent. There is no correlation, though.

I agree with Leto. There may not be correlation to the highest degree; but I am sure that there is some degree of positive correlation between education and competence. But yes, there are outliers such as Bill gates (competence but no education). I suppose Bush Jr. could be an outlier as well (education but no competence).

I think the "chicken/egg" question is more debatable: Does a competent person obtain more education or does a person gain competence through education? I suppose it would be a little of both.

 

[Ch. 12]

I agree with Leto. There may not be correlation to the highest degree; but I am sure that there is some degree of positive correlation between education and competence. But yes, there are outliers such as Bill gates (competence but no education). I suppose Bush Jr. could be an outlier as well (education but no competence).

I think the "chicken/egg" question is more debatable: Does a competent person obtain more education or does a person gain competence through education? I suppose it would be a little of both.

Competence is more of a personality trait relating to leadership and management style. Education gives you the foundation but it takes charisma and critical thinking ability to turn that foundation into competence. As with Bush, pride can drown competence in the blink of an eye. He was given the foundation to move forward with but education did not make him or anyone else competent. Competence is like the natural athletic talent of a star athlete. The athlete can practice and practice but that doesn't increase their natural ability. Just the same, a person can learn and learn but that doesn't increase their competence.

 

[KCFlyer]

Wow, NO CORRELATION between education and competence. We sure waste a lot of money on education. :down: I guess an education is worthless if it doesn't make you more competent.

I have seen a few MBA's and indeed a Phd or two who pushed when the door clearly said pull. Point being that Bush may hold an Ivy League MBA, but it means nothing if your leadership style is "Ready - FIRE - Aim".