JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[NYer]

Yes I called you and whoever decided to dump Cabin Service a sell out. That agreement was only robbing Peter to pay Paul and shouldn't have been brought to us in the first place. So that's why I very politely stated that I was voting no to which two individuals jumped all over my arse. Sorry if I wasn't down with the program.

And the way you acted for "my" decision told me that you supported the agreement to dump those jobs. That agreement was a chopping off of our foot agreement to eat it because we were starving. I think it's a little sick to eat our own body parts personally.

That agreement should never have been brought to us in the first place. But if you really want to know why I turned against it. It was because of those 80 medically restricted people who were going to be out on the street with no options and good old DelValle's response when you asked him about them. "We're not running a Hospital"

That was the comment that turned me around the most even more than you guys deciding to bring it back to us.

 
That agreement not coming back would have left us with one option, as it turned out...bankruptcy.
 
If that was your preference, then so be it.

 

[NYer]

And come to find out BTW after the fact per Sharon Levine there is no such thing as a pre Bankruptcy agreement and all items in our contract would be on the table. That A hole hoodwinked you guys by throwing down that quicky take it or leave it offer and you jumped on it.

Do I blame you? No. Because I think you've learned a lot since that time. Your Leaders were the ones who should have known what would/could happen if/when they went BK and they were either incompetent for not having that information or just maybe something else?

And also maybe part of the reason they're all gone now?

But you go ahead and keep holding a torch for them if you want.

 
All gone? The majority of that negotiating group is on the current Negotiating Committee, which you support wholeheartedly. It also included the retired former ATD Director and a current TWU VP.
 
The guys in the room, seemed to get a promotion contrary to your post.

 

[WeAAsles]

That agreement not coming back would have left us with one option, as it turned out...bankruptcy.
 
If that was your preference, then so be it.

Baloney. Even if it had been a pure concession from what you guys told me the value of Cabin was only $20 Million per year. A $20 Million per year cost savings was not going to keep AA out of the Courts and you know it.

Besides the retiring Pilots bailing on the airline is what pushed them over the edge more than anything else and that's a fact. Without that they may have decided to try to continue limping on? Probably long term more to our detriment.

 

[WeAAsles]

All gone? The majority of that negotiating group is on the current Negotiating Committee, which you support wholeheartedly. It also included the retired former ATD Director and a current TWU VP.
 
The guys in the room, seemed to get a promotion contrary to your post.

The Leaders who should have informed you that there was no such thing as a pre bankruptcy agreement are gone. Who hired or retained the Lawyer and why was that question (not) asked?

Don't try to push this on the small station Presidents or I'll push it on you since you usually consider yourself to be the smartest one in the room. (I didn't blame you notice)

 

[Kev3188]

Just to jump the gun here. In the BK we agreed (gun to head) to close the city of Memphis. 13 people. My asked my friend Greg if he cold have been paid less to stay there would he have accepted? He said yea. His line in the sand to remain personally was $17.00 per hour.

Could we or should we have saved his city? Again that was HIS city, not ours.

 
No, it was your city. As in all of you. And now it's a point you'll likely not get back (IIRC, LUS was on their way out when I worked there in '98-'99...
 

Dumb comment Kev. 

 
It was an experiential one. My guess is if you showed up at my gate, everything would be just fine.

 

[WeAAsles]

No, it was your city. As in all of you. And now it's a point you'll likely not get back (IIRC, LUS was on their way out when I worked there in '98-'99...
 

 
It was an experiential one. My guess is if you showed up at my gate, everything would be just fine.

Agreed that it was our city. And I voted yes in the BK to close it. I'll own that. Could there maybe been an alternative? If NYer says people booed the idea then I guess not. Sad though that the decision may have been made for them to kick them out of THEIR homes.

CC bid before clerks in MIA. Some CC are better than others and some are merely tolerable. Some no way will I bid with. My choice since I bid their gates.

 

[NYer]

Baloney. Even if it had been a pure concession from what you guys told me the value of Cabin was only $20 Million per year. A $20 Million per year cost savings was not going to keep AA out of the Courts and you know it.

Besides the retiring Pilots bailing on the airline is what pushed them over the edge more than anything else and that's a fact. Without that they may have decided to try to continue limping on? Probably long term more to our detriment.

 
As if that was the only issue.
 
When faced with making an issue, it's very easy to do that in front of a screen, several years later with no consequence to your decision. There were many different scenario's played out and the Members were not interested in any of them simply because they didn't believe a BK was possible.
 
It may not have kept us out of BK, but all groups had to do their part. In trying to do our part, decision needed to be made and they were. Ultimately, the decision made would have been much, much better than what we were forced to take. So in hindsight, we did the right thing and worked with the information we had, we didn't have the luxury of hindsight and the crystal ball was broken years before. 

 

[NYer]

The Leaders who should have informed you that there was no such thing as a pre bankruptcy agreement are gone. Who hired or retained the Lawyer and why was that question (not) asked?

Don't try to push this on the small station Presidents or I'll push it on you since you usually consider yourself to be the smartest one in the room. (I didn't blame you notice)

 
When have you hear ever heard me say anything about a pre-bankruptcy agreement?
 
Push on the small stations? See, you try too hard to create something to suit your needs.
 
You made a statement about everyone being gone. That is not factually correct, most of the people (regardless of their station)  were/are still involved in this negotiating process. Nobody but you mentioned their stations.
 
Stay focused and stop trying to get a smoking gun, like you usually try.

 

[WeAAsles]

As if that was the only issue.
 
When faced with making an issue, it's very easy to do that in front of a screen, several years later with no consequence to your decision. There were many different scenario's played out and the Members were not interested in any of them simply because they didn't believe a BK was possible.
 
It may not have kept us out of BK, but all groups had to do their part. In trying to do our part, decision needed to be made and they were. Ultimately, the decision made would have been much, much better than what we were forced to take. So in hindsight, we did the right thing and worked with the information we had, we didn't have the luxury of hindsight and the crystal ball was broken years before.

No. You were hoodwinked because you all claimed you were going to get a pre bankruptcy agreement to protect us in case of that eventuality.

And no such thing again come to find out exists.

If the Leaders wanted or felt they needed to say that the company needed further concessions, they should have stated that. Instead of maybe lying to us that we would be fine once we gave more at the office.

A pre bankruptcy agreement would have been a waste of the tree that was felled for it.

 

[WeAAsles]

When have you hear ever heard me say anything about a pre-bankruptcy agreement?
 
Push on the small stations? See, you try too hard to create something to suit your needs.
 
You made a statement about everyone being gone. That is not factually correct, most of the people (regardless of their station)  were/are still involved in this negotiating process. Nobody but you mentioned their stations.
 
Stay focused and stop trying to get a smoking gun, like you usually try.

There was a pre bankruptcy letter idea being peddled.

You want me to see if I can drag Bob Owens out of board retirement so he can talk about it?

Even Sharon Levine brought the stupidity up in the MIA town hall she had.

I have a very sharp memory about things even if they are years ago now.

 

[WeAAsles]

And just for clarity. I was still in DFW at the time just prior to transferring back to MIA and Tim Gillespie was the one flouting the idea of the pre BK agreement.

Just like he said we were all going to get $12,500 if we voted yes to the 03 concessions in front of over 350 people at the Lonesome Dove ranch meeting.

That was the same $12,500 that I never got since Tim must have been outside smoking when they were told it was part of the concessions.

Tim doesn't smoke BTW.

 

[NYer]

No. You were hoodwinked because you all claimed you were going to get a pre bankruptcy agreement to protect us in case of that eventuality.

And no such thing again come to find out exists.

If the Leaders wanted or felt they needed to say that the company needed further concessions, they should have stated that. Instead of maybe lying to us that we would be fine once we gave more at the office.

A pre bankruptcy agreement would have been a waste of the tree that was felled for it.

 
Absolutely not. All our meetings asked everyone to consider the alternatives of voting no and bankruptcy was one of them. A vote is everyone's right but we at least wanted everyone to consider the consequences of the voting yes and voting no. 
 
However, the higher value of the TA would have helped to cushion the hits taken in BK. In that forum, they take the entire value of the deal from which a percentage was to be drawn out. The value of the TA was higher than the value of the 2003 CBA, even with the cuts it included. For instance, the raises that were programmed for the TA amounted to X value, which would have been included on the percentage taken in BK but was something that was not yet in our pockets.

 

[NYer]

There was a pre bankruptcy letter idea being peddled.

You want me to see if I can drag Bob Owens out of board retirement so he can talk about it?

Even Sharon Levine brought the stupidity up in the MIA town hall she had.

I have a very sharp memory about things even if they are years ago now.

 
There was no talk of a pre-bankruptcy agreement. Especially since the BK, although a possibility, was a big surprise to everyone.
 
It may have been talked about in a chat room or brought up as a rumor, but it was never a serious matter within the process.

 

[NYer]

And just for clarity. I was still in DFW at the time just prior to transferring back to MIA and Tim Gillespie was the one flouting the idea of the pre BK agreement.

Just like he said we were all going to get $12,500 if we voted yes to the 03 concessions in front of over 350 people at the Lonesome Dove ranch meeting.

That was the same $12,500 that I never got since Tim must have been outside smoking when they were told it was part of the concessions.

Tim doesn't smoke BTW.

 
You want to debate the 1995 deal too?
 
Can't you focus on one issue?

 

[WeAAsles]

Absolutely not. All our meetings asked everyone to consider the alternatives of voting no and bankruptcy was one of them. A vote is everyone's right but we at least wanted everyone to consider the consequences of the voting yes and voting no. 
 
However, the higher value of the TA would have helped to cushion the hits taken in BK. In that forum, they take the entire value of the deal from which a percentage was to be drawn out. The value of the TA was higher than the value of the 2003 CBA, even with the cuts it included. For instance, the raises that were programmed for the TA amounted to X value, which would have been included on the percentage taken in BK but was something that was not yet in our pockets.

So you're saying that any "immediate" raises had more value then the $20 Million dollar hit we would have taken had we gotten the chance to vote?

So what was the immediate value we would have had for the exchange then?