June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Hey east us did you read this?

Umm...yeah, and previously responded....(speaking of "did you read?") Are you forwarding it again for the generous purpose of providing some additional chuckles? 😉

Who would want to miss out on the delightful and utterly impeccable "logic" contained within:
"See, the APA's list is far from DOH." Immediately followed by: "Apa does not need to reorder there list to DOH, they already are DOH,.........." and, of course, the icing on the cake: " ....if you look at the nic, not a DOH integration, yet if it is ever implemented, a DOH list will be pruduced....".....? Whew!

 

[Ames]

Fair enough; let's start with any argument you can possibly advance against just the first point being entirely accurate then: "The truth" is that you're seeking artificially enhanced, and entirely undeserved personal advancement over others that have done far more than yourself for this cluster of an airline entity, and have only the utmost contempt for them in the selfish process.....period."

If you feel up to it afterwards; we can proceed from there.

Eastus, I responded to this once before and am awaiting your answer. Explain how placing an east 1989 hire with 6 years actually on property, who was furloughed at merger, over 700 numbers senior to myself - a captain at that time with over 7 years on property if fair. You claim the west is "seeking artificially enhanced, and entirely undeserved personal advancement over others that have done far more" than myself for the airline. Tell me precisely how you don't have this quite backwards.

 

[cleardirect]

Sadly so it seems...since, despite the clarity and elegance of your "presentation" here.... I'm still left a "bit" confused by your assertion that: "fodase: Well USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba." 😉

"So which is it? "USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba" or they're bound to the nic?"

PS: Proper points for "stupid" and of course "scabs" as momentary replacements for the standard "clown" issuance. Such flexibility has long been noted as the hallmark of truly great minds throughout time.....

Damn dude it is exhausting having to explain the simplest of concepts to you.
Let’s start with elementary questions.

Is the east seniority list arranged by DOH?
NO?

How could usapa fight for a DOH list in the AWA merger if your list is not DOH?
Now take that answer and apply it to how usapa would have to use the Nicolau list that is not DOH and try and get DOH using the Nicolau list with american.
Or maybe you think that the Nicolau list can be reordered to strict DOH. You east guys think that APA is going to agree to or fight for DOH right. How do they do that when the TWA guys with very long DOH are at the bottom? Answer your own question.
Why has the Nicolau list not been used?
You do understand that once the APA negotiates a joint contract for us that implements the Nicolau award completing the three required pieces right? Single certificate, accepted seniority list and a joint contract. We will have a RATIFIED contract, no more BS excuses that it was never ratified so you can’t use the list and our list is ratified so you can’t rearrange it. The T/A does not say a joint contract between east and west just a joint contract. It will just happen to be a joint contract between the west, east and American.

You also realize that usapa is not going to be the bargaining agent anymore right? So it will be APA negotiating seniority. With officially only two lists the Nicolau and the American list. The east APA reps can argue in front of the arbitrator that the east wants the two list merged by DOH. I seriously doubt he would do that but give it a try. The native American will argue for their method and the west reps will argue for our method, most likely relative with American WB fences. ( You also understand that with a joint contract there will be no fences between east and west right?)

 

[EastUS1]

Eastus, I responded to this once before and am awaiting your answer. Explain how placing an east 1989 hire with 6 years actually on property, who was furloughed at merger, over 700 numbers senior to myself - a captain at that time with over 7 years on property if fair. You claim the west is "seeking artificially enhanced, and entirely undeserved personal advancement over others that have done far more" than myself for the airline. Tell me precisely how you don't have this quite backwards.

Fair enough Ames, and my apologies for the earlier omission, as I'd previously missed your request during a busy day. There's no quibbling to be done, by way of my own notions of personal contributions/years worked/etc, on the inequity of having one with a year less worked than yourself placed 700 above you. As described; you gave a year's more service than did they to this "cluster" of a company's survival.....period.

Would it be reasonable to ask of you your thoughts on placing then AWA new hires ahead of those who'd worked over a decade and a half of solid service?

Even should anyone agree that relative seniority is a reasonable way to go (which I don't)...well...it's still abundantly clear that good old Mr. Nic screwed the pooch royally with this mess.

 

[EastUS1]

Well USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba."

Damn dude it is exhausting having to explain the simplest of concepts to you.

I assure you that it's far less exhauting than dealing with "Dude-Speak" and absurdly patronizing BS from perpetual adolescents......

Nothing you wrote directly dismissed: "Well USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba."

See listings under: "Dude!...I'm Waaay, Totally Bored now Dude!"...and personal patience "exhausted" for now.

Have a good one today all. 😉

 

[fodase]

..well...it's still abundantly clear that good old Mr. Nic screwed the pooch royally with this mess.

No the only screw ups here are the east pilots. Or are you saying the dal/nwa ans f9/republic arbitrators also screwed up? 3 different arbitrations same results. Of course logical though is not your forte

 

[EastUS1]

No the only screw ups here are the east pilots. Or are you saying the dal/nwa ans f9/republic arbitrators also screwed up? 3 different arbitrations same results. Of course logical though is not your forte

"No the only screw ups here are the east pilots."...immediately followed by "...logical though is not your forte"..? Ok..thanks for the parting chuckle. 😉

 

[nic4us]

You also show your ignorance thinking the APA is going to re-order their group by DOH, just to accomodate the wishes of a scab union. See, the APA's list is far from DOH. There are 1985 TWA hires literally thousands below their native American 1985 counterpart.

Apa does not need to reorder there list to DOH, they already are DOH, the previous mergers regardless of how the integration went, will producea DOH list. For example, if you look at the nic, not a DOH integration, yet if it is ever implemented, a DOH list will be pruduced leaving every person where they are in the nic with an "adjusted DOH". As in the guys near me who have 1990 DOH at awa, will then have an "adjusted DOH" of 1983. Apa has already done this with the integrated reno, aircal pilots etc. but dont let the facts get in the way.

See this is exactly why the east continually finds itself in the wrong position. Absolutely no comprehension of the situation you are in.

First and foremost.... the West was not added to the east's list. So, in your example, the AWA guy does not get an adjusted DOH of 1983, the east guy gets and adjusted DOH of 1990,,,,,,not bad for a guy hired in 2005.

I will say this though.....you are catching on, and exactly where do you think the APA would like to put the east guy with an adjusted DOH of 1990, when just like you, they will think the 1990 hire is being added to their list...i.e. hired in 2013?

 

[nic4us]

Fair enough Ames, and my apologies for the earlier omission, as I'd previously missed your request during a busy day. There's no quibbling to be done, by way of my own notions of personal contributions/years worked/etc, on the inequity of having one with a year less worked than yourself placed 700 above you. As described; you gave a year's more service than did they to this "cluster" of a company's survival.....period.

Would it be reasonable to ask of you your thoughts on placing then AWA new hires ahead of those who'd worked over a decade and a half of solid service?

Even should anyone agree that relative seniority is a reasonable way to go (which I don't)...well...it's still abundantly clear that good old Mr. Nic screwed the pooch royally with this mess.

Couple of things.

1. From his posts, AMES is a junior Captain. Those 700 he talks about going in front of him also go in front of West pilots quite a bit senior to him. If AMES had 7 years that makes him a 1998 hire, while the 700 not only go in front of him, they go in front of West captains with a decade in the left seat and 16 year uninterupted service who were hired in 1989/90.

2. When looking at the placement of the AWA newhires, you east guys get all bent. You are constantly looking at the AWA guy and whining about fairness. Instead, you should just look at how many were placed between you and the other east pilot who the day before the merger was one number senior to you. The answere is nothing changed. You stayed in the exact same spot, even moved up in a relative basis. But, you look at it like, well, if I could only have what that AWA guy had, (and I should because I am entittled to that position), then everything woud be fair.

 

[cleardirect]

Well USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba."



I assure you that it's far less exhauting than dealing with "Dude-Speak" and absurdly patronizing BS from perpetual adolescents......

Nothing you wrote directly dismissed: "Well USAPA is free to pursue DOH with this new merger since they are the current cba."

See listings under: "Dude!...I'm Waaay, Totally Bored now Dude!"...and personal patience "exhausted" for now.

Have a good one today all. 😉

What you don't like dude?

When you stop throwing out:
perpetual adolescents
Children
youngster
kids, ect I will stop duding you.

BTW stay away from SMF if you are offended by dude. There is a departure named the dudes.

Now that I have addressed your attempt to divert the subject. Any comment on the topic of usapa can try and get DOH using the Nicolau list? Figured out how that would happen yet?

The east can attempt to get DOH all day long. That does not mean that you are going to get it though. Remember this time it is federal law no sneaking out of your obligation. There is no crying in seniority arbitration.

How would APA get DOH with thier list like you all think is going to happen?

 

[Ames]

Fair enough Ames, and my apologies for the earlier omission, as I'd previously missed your request during a busy day. There's no quibbling to be done, by way of my own notions of personal contributions/years worked/etc, on the inequity of having one with a year less worked than yourself placed 700 above you. As described; you gave a year's more service than did they to this "cluster" of a company's survival.....period.

Would it be reasonable to ask of you your thoughts on placing then AWA new hires ahead of those who'd worked over a decade and a half of solid service?

Even should anyone agree that relative seniority is a reasonable way to go (which I don't)...well...it's still abundantly clear that good old Mr. Nic screwed the pooch royally with this mess.

Please provide an example of AWA new hires being placed above someone with 15 years of solid service.

PS: The great martyr, D Colello, DOH 7/18/88 had under 17 years when the merger was announced. He is one below AWA's bottom guy. Tell me Colello was never furloughed.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Anyone read the dilusional ratings of parrella from her campaign letter? Holy crap she has a high opinion of herself.

Unbelievable how she tries to justify her unethical behavior.

In her mind she is the only person qualified to find wrongdoing, prosecute and rule all on her own.

Judge, jury and executioner. Anyone voting for parrella had better hope you never get on the wrong side of her. There is not such thing as a benevolent dictator. The hanging judge parrella.

Although a rare event, we can indeed agree on some things.

 

[Beancounter]

Please provide an example of AWA new hires being placed above someone with 15 years of solid service.

PS: The great martyr, D Colello, DOH 7/18/88 had under 17 years when the merger was announced. He is one below AWA's bottom guy. Tell me Colello was never furloughed.

C'mon Ames, don't you know that furloughed pilots from a soon to liquidate carrier go above active pilots at a soon to be bankrupt carrier. Jeeesh, the Jihadists want it all, don't you know? West list tacked onto bottom of east aka DOH, Retro pay w/ big contract, and 100 virgins. Wait a second...... I thought the westies were the greedy ones. Hmmmmmmm.

Bean (Sarcasm intended)

 

[cleardirect]

Fair enough Ames, and my apologies for the earlier omission, as I'd previously missed your request during a busy day. There's no quibbling to be done, by way of my own notions of personal contributions/years worked/etc, on the inequity of having one with a year less worked than yourself placed 700 above you. As described; you gave a year's more service than did they to this "cluster" of a company's survival.....period.

Would it be reasonable to ask of you your thoughts on placing then AWA new hires ahead of those who'd worked over a decade and a half of solid service?

What was the seniority of the east pilot with 17 years? Did he not have the exact same seniority as the west new hire? If it took 17 years of seniority to obtain the same amount of seniority as a new hire I would say that is a poor career choice with very little career expectation.

It is called a seniority integration arbitration. A process designed to integrate seniority not longevity.

 

[Move2CLT]

Say the sky gods...

You people are amazing.

You're obviously quite oblivious as to the way you easties have been running your union. I wonder why we're doing another AB election? Do you know?

And amazing you're not. Far from it in fact.