June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

I agree 100%.

Two points to that statement. You have 900+ non-furloughed, yet not working AMR pilots.

and, there are no "furloughed" pilots at LCC. So, Odell's status is actively bypassing recal and still one number senior to Colello.

No, those furloughed guys who listened to Furguson are most likely in trouble. There won't be any recalls to the west for a long time. That was a huge error.

 

[luvthe9]

Really, you can't figure this out?

Open your eyes just slightly. Listen carefully. The APA does not care if it is an east or west pilot. They want all of us junior to them.

If they only have one list all them have to do is argue that the entire list gets push down against their list. If they have to argue over 3-4 or 5 lists is becomes much harder.

They have a list. We have a list. If they disregard an arbitrated list the TWA guys are going to demand a redo of their list. The last thing the APA wants to do is open up that can of worms.

BTW it is OUR placement as far down the list as possible not just mine or the west that the APA wants.

You are absolutely correct. They want all of us below them. But there is more to it. The ones with the least amount of time to sit above any AA guy is the one they want around the least time. Then they move up. If you put a younger West guy ahead of them, you get no benefit. How can you not understand that concept? You do, but you are typically in denial. Just like you think the Nic has a shot. It is finished, especially now going into another merge. Kirby himself said it.

 

[Zone5]

Never a shortage of amusement to be found: "I've a mechanism in place (known as AOL) to sue.....If they don't enforce and honor my TA...which I paid for and I am entitled to...." Let's briefly examine the key elements of the operative philosophy exhibited = "I've"..."my"..."I paid for"..."I am entitled to". Whew!...Ok then. 😉

This is, of course, immediately followed by projecting onto others their supposed notions: "word's to the effect....it's all about meeeeeee" 😉 Small wonder nic "makes sense" to some at least...and is naturally "fair and equitable" to boot.

Little point in much addressing the infantile pathology inherent in: "Hopefully soon, the wicked witches of the east will be DEAD known as usapa and supporters..." There's just never a dull moment in the little soap opera hereabouts...

I don't mind the "Wicked Witch" being dead, as long as the "Flying Monkeys" out West are gone too!


seajay

 

[Claxon]

It would be wise of usapa to take Clear's advice.

He is just relating the reality of the situation that the east refuses to understand, both in the LCC merger and a future LCC/AMR merger.

The Nic does not devastate any east pilots career expectation when all factors are considered. No doubt the Nic shatters the east expectation of leapfrogging from furloughed to captain seat at the West's expense, but that was never going to happen.

Another thing. The top West pilots on the Nic are also the closest to retirement, but none of them were flying when Clear was born, just like no AMR pilots were flying when Clear was born. You understanding of the demographics are grossly overexagerated.

Bottom line, the APA would seek to move the entire LCC list (i.e. the Nic) as far down the AMR list in an integration. The wise thing for usapa to do would be take the Nic, and as the 9th said " bargain for all USAirways pilots, both east and West" for the fairest treatment of all LCC pilots.

If usapa tries to go in with 3 lists, the east is going to get hammered, and the West will be right there getting hammered with you, but will gain in relation to our east counterparts relative to the NIc.

What an amazingly stupid presentation. Clear has nothing good to advise anyone of. It is a shrill and divisive force, seeking to opportune at any expense. The proper response is to politely say NO, and go ahead with the destruction of the faulty Nicolau plan. USAPA has no obligation to anything Nicolau. None at all and the courts back you. The westerners are palpably terrified going into a merge with AA with no merger with the eastern group. And they should be. It is the perfect situation for the AA group to arrange the seniority precisely where they wish. And that absolutely means the youngest at the rear of the train. It is that simple.

 

[Phoenix]

Actually, American has 1,685 furloughed pilots, of which 650 have yet to be offered recall. The rest have deferred recall. Some are back on active duty in the Armed Forces and some have evidently decided to get real jobs somewhere else.

Pilots who have been offered recall are NOT furloughed.


seajay

Well there ya go. You have identified another one of the many contengencies that a union is best suited to address, and it would be premature for a judge or panel of judges to assume they are more capapable of figuring it out before it is figured out!

 

[cleardirect]

You are absolutely correct. They want all of us below them. But there is more to it. The ones with the least amount of time to sit above any AA guy is the one they want around the least time. Then they move up. If you put a younger West guy ahead of them, you get no benefit. How can you not understand that concept? You do, but you are typically in denial. Just like you think the Nic has a shot. It is finished, especially now going into another merge. Kirby himself said it.

Since the list is not arranged by date of birth your entire point is irrelevant.

Next not all west pilots are younger than east pilots. So again making your point irrelevant.

Better check exactly what Kirby said. Did Kirby say there would be three parties at the table of has he said there would be three lists? Big difference.

One of the things our lawyers told us. Going back to CAB rules interested parties get a seat that does not mean they get their own list. Also in arbitration the arbitrator only answers the question asked. APA will control that question. Since usapa will be gone it could be east pilots at the table but the arbitrator is not going to even entertain the question about the fairness of the Nicolau. When judge Silver rules it is the Nicolau what is the arbitrator, APA, east pilots or the company going to do?

 

[Zone5]

Really, you can't figure this out?

Open your eyes just slightly. Listen carefully. The APA does not care if it is an east or west pilot. They want all of us junior to them.

If they only have one list all them have to do is argue that the entire list gets push down against their list. If they have to argue over 3-4 or 5 lists is becomes much harder.

They have a list. We have a list. If they disregard an arbitrated list the TWA guys are going to demand a redo of their list. The last thing the APA wants to do is open up that can of worms.

BTW it is OUR placement as far down the list as possible not just mine or the west that the APA wants.

All lists, at both AMR and LCC should be combined by DOH. Simply, let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with that.


seajay

 

[cleardirect]

All lists, at both AMR and LCC should be combined by DOH. Simply, let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with that.


seajay

Same argument you used last time. How did that work out.

But like I said you can have DOH right next to the TWA guys. I will take what I have been arguing for relative seniority.

 

[Move2CLT]

... Simply, let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with that.


seajay

Except when it comes to the Nic, right?

 

[Move2CLT]

Since the list is not arranged by date of birth your entire point is irrelevant.

Let's move beyond luv's point and just call him irrelevant as well.

 

[Move2CLT]

No, those furloughed guys who listened to Furguson are most likely in trouble. There won't be any recalls to the west for a long time. That was a huge error.

And Kasher will pay...........

LMAO.

 

[OTTER574]

All lists, at both AMR and LCC should be combined by DOH. Simply, let the chips fall where they may. I have no problem with that.


seajay

Seajay, if this merger goes through and you're filling out that APA application. It finally may sink in who's representing you as your CBA.

In my contract called the TA, it states that with a joint contract with the company will implement the LEGAL NIC for all LCC pilots.

You might have heard this before seajay that currently usapa and possibly APA inherits our contracts? Maybe not if you're not paying attention and getting crew room sound bites to keep you funding an illegal quest proposed by the maybe soon out of business corrupt usapa.

OTTER

 

[nic4us]

Yep, those guys with 18 years and never furloughed going behind new hires was a screaming deal. I wonder how long they thought about it before the launched ALPA off the land. Are you really that naive that you think they would put up with that? Anyone letting that go down? McIlvenna set you guys up for the problems you have today, and it is going to bite you harder than you ever imagined very soon.

I did not say ALPA would win by a wide margin...I said it would be close.

My reasoning was not about the furloughed guys and the east f/o's that wanted to steal West jobs....I knew the scabs would vote usapa.

I am talking about the top 1000 out of 2800 active east pilots who went from about to lose their job after 25 years to still being the top of the heap and gaining significant relative seniority. The top 517 plus lets say the east guy that was 1000/2800 who with the Nic became 1150/5400.

It would not have taken the entire 1000 to vote ALPA and then ALPA would have won. In fact the number was closer to like 750 east pilots voting for ALPA and ALPA would have remained.

Like I said....I underestimated how stupid those top 1000 could be thinking they would also gain positions from the West when there were so few if any positions to gain. Further, I bet if they would have known the scabs would cost them 100s of thousands in pay, usapa would be a distant memory of scab Bradford and his union busting lawyer as nothing more than an also ran.

 

[EastUS1]

....eastus1 may give you some valuable information going forward, especially the 😉 😉 function... 😛

I'll cheerfully defer to you there. I'm sure all could use some "valuable information" on exactly how you would have "better" handled the situation Sully and Skiles dealt with so well....? A suggestion to "some" here would be never to put up any wholesale BS that can't be backed up....just sayin'.

 

[nic4us]

But it didnt you freakn idiot. We are here with no help from scab clowns like you. Whats wrong,afraid your not going to steal our number.LMFAO. It is so funny how pissed off you guys are. What I dont get is you Westoffs keep saying it is a done deal The Nic is it blah blah blah. If you do get to cash in your lotto ticket I can promise you I will not in the least be as pissed as you guys are. You truly are the joke of the industry.

Correct, usair did not liquidate in 2005, it was purchased by AWA.

Of course you would have no reason to be pissed. The Nic is a lotto win for the east. Guys like you going from furloughed with no chance of recall, to quickly recalled, folks like 767one going from about to lose his job after 30 years to keeping his job then dumping on West pilots. Then you have scabs like Colello...they are going to be pissed. Going from furloughed and not working, to not working as a FPL recipient for the scab union. If an AMR merger happens..old scab Dean is getting replaced by one of the 900 AMR pilots who have bypassed recall, but won't once they have furlough fodder like Colello below them.