June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I bet no one will own up to being a usapa supporter in 20 years. I don't know what the hell will happen in the meantime, but I'd put money on that statement.

 

[cleardirect]

I bet no one will own up to being a usapa supporter in 20 years. I don't know what the hell will happen in the meantime, but I'd put money on that statement.

20 years? Two years no one will admit supporting usapa. Just like you can't find a single person that will admit voting for LOA 93.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

20 years? Two years no one will admit supporting usapa. Just like you can't find a single person that will admit voting for LOA 93.

After 5 Budweisers I was trying to be gracious. I just re-read the RICO dismissal earlier while looking for something. That put me in a 'mood.' 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

I bet no one will own up to being a usapa supporter in 20 years.

LOL...In the (personally at least), very happy event I'm even still alive in 20 years...I can promise you that opposing the nic obscenity, and thus doing what I felt to be entirely right in that regard, most certainly, won't cost me even a second of the slightest regret or grief. 🙂

You gents are driving down Pure Projection Blvd again....that old "the rest of the world" stuff once more...Oh well.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

LOL...In the (personally at least), very happy event I'm even still alive in 20 years...I can promise you that opposing the nic obscenity, and thus doing what I felt to be entirely right in that regard, most certainly, won't cost me even a second of the slightest regret or grief. 🙂

You gents are driving down Pure Projection Blvd again....that old "the rest of the world" stuff once more...Oh well.

Opposing the Nic is fine, I'd never begrudge you that.

 

[EastUS1]

Opposing the Nic is fine, I'd never begrudge you that.

Nor I your views to the contrary. The entire scenario would have been best avoided for all concerned.....but "stuff happens" in life that reasonable people, if given any magical chance to do so, would have seen work otherwise. I think both groups were pretty much screwed the moment the nic was announced. Oh well...."it is what it is" and we'll all live regardless.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Nor I your views to the contrary. The entire scenario would have been best avoided for all concerned.....but "stuff happens" in life that reasonable people, if given any magical chance to do so, would have seen work otherwise. I think both groups were pretty much screwed the moment the nic was announced. Oh well...."it is what it is" and we'll all live regardless.

Usapa went below the belt, it didn't have to. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the average east pilot, but rather a select few with their hands on the reigns. I could say more, but I don't feel like waxing philosophical right now, frankly. Suffice it to say, I think more of the average east pilot than I do 'usapa.'

 

[Ames]

They paid their dues. Are you willing to pay yours?

I would like to know what you mean by that. I have paid my dues based on the choices that I have made. You see, despite the fact that I am an east coast native I chose not to work at US Air. As an investor I knew that airline would not last long. I also knew some US Air pilots at my ANG unit and was exposed to many more while flying in the commuters. Not people I would enjoy working with.

I chose to work at America Westbecause my wife wanted to live somewhere warm and I choose not to commute. I chose not to apply to Northwest, United or Continental for those same reasons. Delta turned me down and I chose the option of turning down Fedex because I don't like all night flying.

I chose the lower payscale at AWA for the lifestyle and the potential that was evident. As promised I made captain in seven years and enjoyed every day at work with some of the best people I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I accepted these conditions on the gamble that pay and benefits might someday improve but never counted on it.

I did not choose this merger and, as mentioned, never wanted to work for US Air. As far as the dues I have paid I believe the Nicolau list places me right where I should be even though I lost 3% relative seniority. The east's desire to cram a DOH list down our throats places formerly furloughed easties more than 700 numbers senior to me. Guys with less actual time on property than I had when this thing was announced. That's not right. Nicolau got it.

Therefore, I choose to fight the east to the very end. I have paid my dues based on the choices I have made. Have you?

 

[Ames]

I have to just laugh. Look at exactly how that reads, absent any mention of furlough time, (which certainly does not add to LOS)....but seriously folks; since when does LOS ever even enter into nicster philosophy? 😉

Be careful here...you're coming dangerously close to agreeing that the work years/LOS of a person should rationally be respected. Other nicsters may well become incensed, and seek you out with torches and pitchforks 😉

Allowing for additional condensing would provide: "By having......LESS LOS than many...........Sorry. What you're describing is theft... the scab kind."

I have no further questions for this witness 😉

With that said, please explain why, in comparison, a 1989 hire at US Air with more than a year less LOS than I had at merger, who was furloughed at that time, should be placed more than 700 numbers to me (a AWA captain) at that time.

 

[Ames]

I have to just laugh. Look at exactly how that reads, absent any mention of furlough time, (which certainly does not add to LOS)....but seriously folks; since when does LOS ever even enter into nicster philosophy? 😉

Be careful here...you're coming dangerously close to agreeing that the work years/LOS of a person should rationally be respected. Other nicsters may well become incensed, and seek you out with torches and pitchforks 😉

Allowing for additional condensing would provide: "By having......LESS LOS than many...........Sorry. What you're describing is theft... the scab kind."

I have no further questions for this witness 😉

Eastus, were you aware that the AWA merger commitee offered compromises such as LOS considerations but were denied, always with demands for DOH? Read the arbitration transcripts, even with Nicolau telling them to reconsider their DOH position the east merger committee would not budge. Our side was willing to compromise - yours would not budge. So drop it. The truth is in the transcripts.

 

[Ames]

All must then hope those still unfortunately furloughed from the west side "understand" that "easy" concept as well.

Apples and oranges. Should the Nicolau list be used (we will soon have closure) those west pilots currently furloughed will be senior to hundreds on the east. This should be considered.

 

[cleardirect]

More from the president's message.

We’ve sacrificed enough of our SCOPE over the past decade to give birth to several airlines, and although we are earnestly intent on proposing solutions, we are not interested in participating in the continued erosion of our own careers. Finally, even as we work to evaluate the current situation, labor conditions within the industry are changing; Delta’s new Tentative Agreement provides not only industry-leading pay but also significant career protections, and we are now preparing to collectively respond.

How is it that you guys keep pointing to your scope clause and telling the west how great it is, that we have no scope yet here is the president saying how much you gave up and how weak your scope is?

BTW what union negotiated Delta's industry leading career protecting contract? What union is along for the ride on another concessionary contract?

 

[EastUS1]

Usapa went below the belt, it didn't have to. Keep in mind I'm not talking about the average east pilot, but rather a select few with their hands on the reigns.

I've no beef with the average west person myself. As previously noted; I felt going after people to the level of an attempted criminal RICO prosecution was ridiculous and unwarranted. Having said that; it's indisputable that the legally elected, and like it or not, thusly legitimate union, was under full scale "attack" from it's inception. Action had to be taken to defend it's self. Had it not been the case that phone lines were being jammed/etc...well....it's fair to note that culpability must certainly be assigned to west behavior as well.

 

[EastUS1]

With that said, please explain why, in comparison, a 1989 hire at US Air with more than a year less LOS than I had at merger, who was furloughed at that time, should be placed more than 700 numbers to me (a AWA captain) at that time.

I've no argument with your thoughts there. Had this been resolved via people's LOS being properly respected...this mess wouldn't exist today, and none but the most infantile and self obsessed opportunists would be whining. Were a "do over" possible at this very moment; would you support such using LOS? I'm guessing not.

What's your take on putting anyone with as much as 15+ years more LOS than another person behind that pilot with less ?...Or worse yet = behind EVERYONE else...even literal new hires? All I had to see was THAT crap to conclude there was NO way on earth I'd ever vote for anything with the nic included....period.

 

[EastUS1]

Eastus, were you aware that the AWA merger commitee offered compromises such as LOS considerations but were denied,....

.

LOS should be respected....period. I'm not the least bit concerned with "compromises such as LOS considerations"...How "noble" indeed...and "compromises" and "considerations" my arse. One either has it within themselves to respect the work and experience of others..or does not. Any that do not, and instead narcicisstically abide within their own little "It's ALL about MEEE!" world....I've ZERO use for as being even the poorest excuses for human beings. It's really that simple.

I place no blame on the average line pilot on either side, since none were involved with cooking up this atrocious scenario, nor had any direct input, much less any vote on it all.

I can understand west folks supporting the nic after the fact, since all input had been removed from the process by then, and line pilots...all are pretty much just around for the ride...but to ever even suggest it was at all, in any way, a "reasonable" outcome is preposterous. Had it truly been at all "reasonable"...we'd not be having this discussion, nor suffering the continued effects of the sad situation on either side.