June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvthe9]

Do you understand the difference between a DFR lawsuit and a request for declaratory judgement?

Harm? Are you positive you are being harmed? After all, you have a job and the court may take that view. Consider yourselves lucky to be working at all. After all, that is the Leonidas feeling about the USAir furloughed guys going on the bottom. Prepare for similar treatment.


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3


Read the bottom line of the court opinion very carefully Ames..........the same court that will hear the appeal , again if need be......

 

[luvthe9]

I have quoted the court over and over where they supported my claim. You can't quote one, one item where the 9th said the seniority has to be the Nic. Not one. Same with the harm. Harm is a consideration, yet it is not clearly linked to not using the Nic. The 9th clearly said you might not be harmed, even using a non Nic list.


Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[luvthe9]

You can quote snippets of transcripts all day long to spin your argument. Intelligent people will recognize the truth is in the totality of said transcript.

How about you then quoting a few "snippets" from the 9th that say the Nic has to be used......... This ought to be very interesting........

 

[Phoenix]

How about you then quoting a few "snippets" from the 9th that say the Nic has to be used......... This ought to be very interesting........

Don't be so hard on him. You could at least give him a hint. "look in the dissenting opinion section!"

 

[nevergiveup]

Well, if that's true then we gambled. Let's see what happens when Judge Silver rules. At least I didn't have to be over 700 numbers junior to a guy who was furloughed when this abomination happened. If nothing else I avoided that pitfall for the past few years with the chance coming that I will never have to be junior to guys furloughed at the time of merger, who also have less LOS than I.

Good point, but remember the furloughed pilot and his or her family was being forced to make a huge sacrifice to save the jobs of thousands. Those that have had the fortune of never being furloughed for an extended time will probably not understand. I do not wish that on anyone.

 

[Phoenix]

So how does a process called for and agreed to as part of a collective bargaining agreement, affectionately known as the Transition Agreement, get classified as an "internal union dispute"? Do you think the law clerks at the Ninth forgot about that little detail...

Your opinion, or my opinion, on that matters not. Unless the 9th or SCOTUS decides there was an error then grousing about what the 9th published is just bar talk after the refs blew the whistle following the buzzer.

 

[cynic]

I have quoted the court over and over where they supported my claim. You can't quote one, one item where the 9th said the seniority has to be the Nic. Not one. Same with the harm. Harm is a consideration, yet it is not clearly linked to not using the Nic. The 9th clearly said you might not be harmed, even using a non Nic list.


Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

Show me one USAPA proposal for seniority that does not "harm" the west pilot group when compared to the Nic award. There is a difference between legal theory and the reality of this situation.

 

[nic4us]

How about you then quoting a few "snippets" from the 9th that say the Nic has to be used......... This ought to be very interesting........

Allow me scab,

The present impasse,​

in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’​

claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any​

contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its​

membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain​

in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members​

— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe​

DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.​

2Plaintiffs’ alleged hardship cannot instead be premised on any delay​

caused by USAPA in reaching a single CBA. As the district court noted,​

Plaintiffs abandoned their claim that USAPA is intentionally delaying​

negotiation of a CBA. Addington, 2009 WL 2169164, at *22 (“During discovery,​

Plaintiffs retreated from any notion of deliberate delay on the part​

of USAPA.&rdquo😉. The dissent’s assertion that “the absence of a CBA is itself​

powerful evidence of a DFR violation,” Diss. op. at 8015, is therefore misplaced.​

Although absence of a CBA might be evidence of a DFR violation,​

if the violation were based on deliberate delay by the union, it is not evidence​

of a union’s improper preference of one seniority system over​

another. As demonstrated by ALPA’s similar difficulties in reaching a​

CBA, the pilot groups, and individual pilots with their ratification/nonratification​

powers, are the major contributors to the absence of a CBA in​

these circumstances.​

3

DFRII will again make the claim that the scab union is intentionally causing delay....oh..and this time we have 4 plus years of evidence of that intentional delay, plus illegal slowdowns with an injunction, plus a dismissed with prejudice case in NYC. Add to that all the evidence of West members being barred from open union meetings, denied committeee positions, etc.etc. etc. and you have a failed scab union that will get handed its a$$. ​

Damages back to 2008, and the company is not about to put their neck on the line for you scabs......Get it yet??​

​

Oh, wait, you probvably think you can pawn it off on the APA.....just gotta laugh at you scabs.​

​

​

 

[cleardirect]

This has to be the most pompous BULLSHIT post I have ever read here. You never know how you career will turn out. Remember this you pompous idiot. Over two thirds of the US Air list DID NOT originally work for US Air. The stupidity of some of you is sometimes hard to fathom.

PS..Did you see Parkers crew news in PHX where he says HIS OWN attorneys tell him it will most likely be a 3 way under Macaskill-Bond......very interesting!!

NICDOA
NPJB

Yes Parker said it could be a 3 way. In the CLT crew news he said it could be a 2 or 3 way. Which one do you believe?

What Parker said was there could be 3 PARTIES to the arbitration. He did not say there would be 3 LISTS used in the arbitration.

I would be happy to have the east, west and American represented at the table using the Nicolau and the American list. After watching the east the last time I am much more comfortable making my own arguments in front of the arbitrator. You guys have a tendency to over step and screw things up making false arguments.

You guys can make your argument that that Nicolau should be used against American by DOH all day long. But when the arbitrator tells you try again the west can be the reasonable party and save you from yourselves.

 

[luvthe9]

Allow me scab,

The present impasse,​

in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the West Pilots’​

claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any​

contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its​

membership. By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain​

in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members​

— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe​

DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.​

2Plaintiffs’ alleged hardship cannot instead be premised on any delay​

caused by USAPA in reaching a single CBA. As the district court noted,​

Plaintiffs abandoned their claim that USAPA is intentionally delaying​

negotiation of a CBA. Addington, 2009 WL 2169164, at *22 (“During discovery,​

Plaintiffs retreated from any notion of deliberate delay on the part​

of USAPA.&rdquo😉. The dissent’s assertion that “the absence of a CBA is itself​

powerful evidence of a DFR violation,” Diss. op. at 8015, is therefore misplaced.​

Although absence of a CBA might be evidence of a DFR violation,​

if the violation were based on deliberate delay by the union, it is not evidence​

of a union’s improper preference of one seniority system over​

another. As demonstrated by ALPA’s similar difficulties in reaching a​

CBA, the pilot groups, and individual pilots with their ratification/nonratification​

powers, are the major contributors to the absence of a CBA in​

these circumstances.​

3

DFRII will again make the claim that the scab union is intentionally causing delay....oh..and this time we have 4 plus years of evidence of that intentional delay, plus illegal slowdowns with an injunction, plus a dismissed with prejudice case in NYC. Add to that all the evidence of West members being barred from open union meetings, denied committeee positions, etc.etc. etc. and you have a failed scab union that will get handed its a$$. ​

Damages back to 2008, and the company is not about to put their neck on the line for you scabs......Get it yet??​

Oh, wait, you probvably think you can pawn it off on the APA.....just gotta laugh at you scabs.​

That is funny Nic4. But you quoted the dissent, you know- the guys in the minority who got overruled and did not produce the accepted final and binding ruling. You should be able to grasp that concept by now, but you go out and call me a scab, and then produce a statement that has no legal standing, none. Show me where the dissent opinion is the DECISION of the court, and not just what it is, a statement by the minority who disagree. This is why you and Leonidas keep getting blown away, the grasping at straws of Bybee and company, who are not the majority. Please go back, do your work and produce a statement by the ruling court, that says the Nic has to be used. You can't.

 

[cleardirect]

Exactly what happened when Wake overstepped his bounds. It goes to the 9th. The outcome there has already been done once. Do you expect some sort of epiphany and they change their minds about internal union disputes? Just because the AZ legal system can't get their heads around it doesn't mean anything.

Take a deep breath and engage your brain before you engage your mouth.

It was the company that filed the DJ. Making it NOT an internal union dispute. It is the company asking the question about what their legal rights or liability are.

Seriously do you really believe that somehow the "Arizona legal system" meaning the FEDERAL legal system would ignore the law? Please explain why they would do that?

Did the federal legal system rule in favor of usapa when they sued for RICO in NC? Was the federal system bias in NC when they found usapa guilty of an illegal job action? Was the NY federal system biased when they dismissed usapa's stupid waste of money law suit there?

BTW. When you lose who exactly is going to file the appeal and pay for it? Usapa will be GONE. A none entity with no legal standing. It takes an average of 18 months for an appeal to work it's way through the circuit court. We will have a contract and seniority arbitration done by that time. Unless you want to wait on your new pay rates. Don't accept the Nicolau you don't get paid. Read the term sheet.

When usapa goes away the APA takes over. Do you think they will waste their time or money with an appeal? After all they will be the bargaining agent representing the majority of pilots. An appeal does not help the group as a whole.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your opinion, or my opinion, on that matters not. Unless the 9th or SCOTUS decides there was an error then grousing about what the 9th published is just bar talk after the refs blew the whistle following the buzzer.

I agree neither of our opinions matter, but that doesn't mean no opinion on the subject matters. Management and their legal counsel, who is extremely well versed in the RLA and collective bargaining agreements, have expressed an opinion subsequent to the Ninth's ruling that this is not simply an internal union dispute. In their view the Company is legally bound to their agreement and that accepting a non-NIC list would place them in a position of violating the RLA and could be liable for colluding with USAPA as it knowingly violates its DFR to the west pilots. That opinion or interpretation of the law does matter and they have clearly convinced judge Silver that the Ninth did not resolve the dispute or release the Company from its contractual obligation to uphold the terms of the TA. The obvious conclusion from all of this, and one that the Ninth could not so easily have overlooked if Management would have remained enjoined to the Addington case, is that this is not merely an internal dispute and the statements offered by the Ninth to that affect are all but meaningless given what has transpired since they declared the matter to lack the necessary ripeness.

 

[cleardirect]

Well, when ALPA warned you about your risk, you blew them off also, so expect and get the same. This time the outcome will really be what Freund predicted. "ALL THE RISK LIES WITH THE WEST......."

Don't forget when ALPA warned you that if you become usapa you set the Nicolau in stone. You have been warned.

7 years wasted.

 

[luvthe9]

Take a deep breath and engage your brain before you engage your mouth.

It was the company that filed the DJ. Making it NOT an internal union dispute. It is the company asking the question about what their legal rights or liability are.

Seriously do you really believe that somehow the "Arizona legal system" meaning the FEDERAL legal system would ignore the law? Please explain why they would do that?

Did the federal legal system rule in favor of usapa when they sued for RICO in NC? Was the federal system bias in NC when they found usapa guilty of an illegal job action? Was the NY federal system biased when they dismissed usapa's stupid waste of money law suit there?

BTW. When you lose who exactly is going to file the appeal and pay for it? Usapa will be GONE. A none entity with no legal standing. It takes an average of 18 months for an appeal to work it's way through the circuit court. We will have a contract and seniority arbitration done by that time. Unless you want to wait on your new pay rates. Don't accept the Nicolau you don't get paid. Read the term sheet.

When usapa goes away the APA takes over. Do you think they will waste their time or money with an appeal? After all they will be the bargaining agent representing the majority of pilots. An appeal does not help the group as a whole.

Take a deep breath Clear, it will be filed by a bunch of east pilots individually if need be, kind of like Leonidas and Addington. Get it?

 

[cleardirect]

[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated


It goes to the court that already said this..........

With APA as our new bargaining agent and the new majority what are the chances that the Nicolau will be effectuated in a new contract?

We may not even get a vote. The new contract negotiated by the APA could be imposed on us. Read the term sheet. If the APA can't get it done in60 days it goes to arbitration. We could have an arbitrator impose a contract on us. What will you do then? Scream that you did not personally sign anything so it does not count? Sue usapa for not protecting you? Sue APA for giving you a raise. Sue the arbitrator because he did not agree with you?

The ninth is going to be a none issue.