June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

Indeed. I'd just drawn the 15 year mark from being too lazy to want to again read that gloriously "fair and equitable" list in detail.....and I couldn't have reasonably imagined any out west were truly so utterly clueless as to not honestly know....but...that could explain some of the zealotry amongst the most ignorant, I suppose.

Yeah I thought the same when Ames said that. The NIC list is full of never furloughed east pilots placed below west pilots with well over 10 years more uninturrupted service than they have. A certian never furloughed 1986 hire according to NIC is junior to a west guy that was in the 10th grade when the east pilot was flying 737-200's for this company.

 

[nic4us]

Oh Ames that really stings coming from you, the angriest of the AFOs.

It's really funny when you and your friends say that you will remember us forever and Karma will gets us, you compare us to David and Goliath, name your defense fund AOL. David and Goliath, they were on opposite teams!!!!! We are not. Whatever damages us will damage you. I just don't get that line of thinking.

Have you ever considered that there are a couple hundred west pilots that will retire in the next five years?

I am thinking they do not see anything that hurts, destroys, kills, dilutes or otherwise damages usapa can hurt them in the least.

usapa could get kicked out the door and we could become at will employees and the West would be better off. Particularly short timers who do not like the fact that usapa was formed to take from them, and it has!!! tens of thousands.

In reality, it is not Karma that will get the east, it is the federal court system and any future partner in a merger. Can those things hurt the West also, you bet....and it is going to sting the junior West pilots at first, but they will be much better off if they have a long run to be in.

 

[EastUS1]

A certain never furloughed 1986 hire according to NIC is junior to a west guy that was in the 10th grade when the east pilot was flying 737-200's for this company.

Well, geez...c'mon now; how could that not be completely "reasonable"?....Words just fail me. Call it a hunch, but my suspicion is that the bulk of the most strident, self righteous outrage, and loudest trumpeting of the nic's supposed virtues, comes from just such people as the mentioned 10th grader...

 

[nic4us]

Yeah I thought the same when Ames said that. The NIC list is full of never furloughed east pilots placed below west pilots with well over 10 years more uninturrupted service than they have. A certian never furloughed 1986 hire according to NIC is junior to a west guy that was in the 10th grade when the east pilot was flying 737-200's for this company.

I do not know what Ames was Aiming at.....however, by the time Nic published the award, the most junior West pilot had over 2 years LOS, and was definitely past probation and no longer a "newhire".

The deal is really simple. Whether the pilot senior to you is 10 years or 10 days younger than you, it just does not matter, s/he is senior to you and will be for the remainder of your career.

The reality of the situation is in the time frame of when the Nic was published, (age 60retirement etc.) you had a bunch of east guys that were 51 years old telling a bunch of West guys that were 49 years old to go to the back of the line.

Pure BS. The West guys had their own seniority and status within AWA and were/are not going to step aside for what amounts to the duration of their career so some whining remant from an about to be gone airline could take that position.

The fact that AWA had been hiring for the last 9 years when the merger went down of course means there are younger pilots in the mix. so you can find a guy that is say 35 ahead of a guy 55, he is senior to both east and West pilots that are 55. Just because a merger happened, s/he does not have to step aside due to DOB.

To sum.......the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC...and your age has nothing to do with your senioriy or where you fall on that list.

 

[EastUS1]

The deal is really simple. Whether the pilot senior to you is 10 years or 10 days younger than you, it just does not matter, s/he is senior to you and will be for the remainder of your career.

"The deal is really simple." Indeed = Force such insane, infantile, and utterly self-serving BS into being if you can........Enough with all the years of incessant whining already! 😉

A Good Day to All.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I do not know what Ames was Aiming at.....however, by the time Nic published the award, the most junior West pilot had over 2 years LOS, and was definitely past probation and no longer a "newhire".

Would have to look at the NIC publish date to be sure, but I am fairly certian that by the time NIC was put out that most of the east furloughed guys were back on the property also. With a lot more LOS than the 2 year "newhire" All recalls had been put out by mid 2007, and with the exception of the guys being held at the J4J carriers for the 9months they were back on the line. So even those guys were back on the property being pay protected.

 

[nic4us]

Ok, I just went back and got the exact numbers to crunch off the NIC. You sir, are correct! The West pilot just "senior" to me was hired on 8-16-2004, which is 9 months, 3 days after the merger was announced and 16 years, 5 months, 15 days after me, not 17 years.

Now that we have completed this exercise of "separating the fly sheet from the pepper", the fact of the matter is that this West pilot will be 65 in 2040, from an actuarial perspective, he will have been a wide-body Captain for years after I am dead, with or without the NIC. What's the rush?


seajay

Okay, since you did not reply to my post asking about MDA, I can deduce from this post that you were not MDA.

So, go look at that list you have again, take the ten West pilots senior to you on the list and ask yourself if any of them feel like stepping aside for a decade or so, while not only you, but another thousand of your furloughed buddies all go in front of them.

Also, take a look at how many West captains you would leepfrog moving from the NIc to DOH.

I have to ask....what is the rush for you? oh wait...I know what the rush is.....you want to be moved ahead of other pilots that are under the exact same life time constraints as yourself, many of whom will be dead prior to you.

Bottom line...give us all a break on the Nic is not fair BS.

 

[mrbreeze]

You were poking sharp sticks and you were using your daughter and her illness to do it. Truly and absolutely pathetic!

Obviously, you didn't follow the whole conversation.

breeze

 

[nic4us]

Would have to look at the NIC publish date to be sure, but I am fairly certian that by the time NIC was put out that most of the east furloughed guys were back on the property also. With a lot more LOS than the 2 year "newhire" All recalls had been put out by mid 2007, and with the exception of the guys being held at the J4J carriers for the 9months they were back on the line. So even those guys were back on the property being pay protected.

I think you are correct....and I also think Brucia gave a dissenting opinion regarding the LOS of those recalled.

It is all addressed by Nic in the award.

Are you aware that the West hired east pilots that were never furloughed from US, but quit to come to work at AWA because after 17 years at US they knew they were about to be furloughed?

The recalls happened because of the merger. The furloughed east pilots had next to zero expectation of being recalled absent the merger, and if they ever did, it would have been way past 2005. A "newhire" at AWA in 2005 unquestionably had more seniority that a furloughed east pilot.

Again, LOS and DOH do not equal SENIORITY. Colello is one number junior to Odell because....well actually, Odell is one number junior to Monda, because that is where his SENIORITY placed him.

 

[Phoenix]

I do not know what Ames was Aiming at.....however, by the time Nic published the award, the most junior West pilot had over 2 years LOS, and was definitely past probation and no longer a "newhire".

The deal is really simple. Whether the pilot senior to you is 10 years or 10 days younger than you, it just does not matter, s/he is senior to you and will be for the remainder of your career.

The reality of the situation is in the time frame of when the Nic was published, (age 60retirement etc.) you had a bunch of east guys that were 51 years old telling a bunch of West guys that were 49 years old to go to the back of the line.

Pure BS. The West guys had their own seniority and status within AWA and were/are not going to step aside for what amounts to the duration of their career so some whining remant from an about to be gone airline could take that position.

The fact that AWA had been hiring for the last 9 years when the merger went down of course means there are younger pilots in the mix. so you can find a guy that is say 35 ahead of a guy 55, he is senior to both east and West pilots that are 55. Just because a merger happened, s/he does not have to step aside due to DOB.

To sum.......the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC...and your age has nothing to do with your senioriy or where you fall on that list.

Tell us the truth Nic... You won't be 49 for another 20 years.

 

[Phoenix]

I think you are correct....and I also think Brucia gave a dissenting opinion regarding the LOS of those recalled...

You make an excellent point. Dissenting opinions of arbitrators mean nothing. Do you suppose the dissenting opinion of Judges has any more relevance?

 

[nic4us]

Tell us the truth Nic... You won't be 49 for another 20 years.

The truth is I would give everything I have to be 29 again, and unlike most I would be willing to do it only knowing what I knew then!!!

 

[Pi brat]

Have you ever considered that there are a couple hundred west pilots that will retire in the next five years?

I am thinking they do not see anything that hurts, destroys, kills, dilutes or otherwise damages usapa can hurt them in the least.

usapa could get kicked out the door and we could become at will employees and the West would be better off. Particularly short timers who do not like the fact that usapa was formed to take from them, and it has!!! tens of thousands.

In reality, it is not Karma that will get the east, it is the federal court system and any future partner in a merger. Can those things hurt the West also, you bet....and it is going to sting the junior West pilots at first, but they will be much better off if they have a long run to be in.

I haven't spent much time thinking about west retirees, but I'd say you are correct. Please tell me Ames is one of those retiring. At least the senior of those retiring got to keep their seniority that was massively diluted with the Nic.

The junior will be better off? Perhaps, we will see, but not so far.

 

[nic4us]

You make an excellent point. Dissenting opinions of arbitrators mean nothing. Do you suppose the dissenting opinion of Judges has any more relevance?

You are wrong...whether in arbitrations or before judges, dissenting opinions do not "mean nothing".

While they are not the award or verdict they are addressed in the opinions, and that offers further insight regarding the opinion.

For instance, Brucia's dissent in the Nic is addressed by Nicolau. His reasoning is laid out....in the Nic he says Brucia's points actually make a stronger case for the West regarding east pilot's expectations and proper placement when merging seniority.

Now, Bybee's dissent in the 9th's opinion was also addressed. (this is what you are eluding to?). I quoted Tashima in his statements regarding the dissent's remarks, and you east guys think I am taking from the dissent, not the opinion. Not true. Tashima said " the dissent seems to believe defendant is bound by the NIc" (paraphrasing) then offers the opinion that (although he said he can't address the merits due to ripeness) "usapa is at least as free as ALPA to abandon the award".

Well guess what......dissent was right, usapa is bound by the award, ALPA was not free to abandon (and actually mandated by its C&BLs to defend the Nic), and Tashima spelled it out for usapa in the controlling...given by the majority....opinion on the case.

 

[traderjake]

Junior AWE pilot was hired 04/04/2005 and was born in 1971
US pilot one number junior to him was hired 07/18/1988 and born in 1952.

Looks like a differential of almost 17 years to me. Also, look at the age difference! The AWE guy was 34 in 2005 while the US guy was 53.

Are you willing to concede that both pilots had the same amount of seniority at their respective airlines before the merger, i.e. they were the junior pilot on their respective lists?

Are you willing to concede that seniority and longevity are not the same thing?

Did we have a seniority integration or a longevity integration?