June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

I think you are correct....and I also think Brucia gave a dissenting opinion regarding the LOS of those recalled.

It is all addressed by Nic in the award.

Are you aware that the West hired east pilots that were never furloughed from US, but quit to come to work at AWA because after 17 years at US they knew they were about to be furloughed?

The recalls happened because of the merger. The furloughed east pilots had next to zero expectation of being recalled absent the merger, and if they ever did, it would have been way past 2005. A "newhire" at AWA in 2005 unquestionably had more seniority that a furloughed east pilot.

Again, LOS and DOH do not equal SENIORITY. Colello is one number junior to Odell because....well actually, Odell is one number junior to Monda, because that is where his SENIORITY placed him.

I don't know about the 17 year guys about to be furloughed from US. Maybe, but the 2 I know of in that seniority range were not about to be furloughed, we were very short on pilots, but theythought we were going out of business and jumped ship. A very bad career move as their peers are now captains and they are 7 year west F/Os, if not furloughed.

You guys mix and match terms. "Certainly WOULD have....." but we didn't. "Had no career expectations....." but we are still working for the airline. You never mention that Nicolau put many, many west guys in line to get positions they NEVER had an expectation of. Why did the west qualify for non-existent expectations, but not the east? Human nature I guess. I think Brucia nailed it, but he had no power, just words. Kinda like us! :blush:

 

[A320 Driver]

You are wrong...whether in arbitrations or before judges, dissenting opinions do not "mean nothing".

While they are not the award or verdict they are addressed in the opinions, and that offers further insight regarding the opinion.

For instance, Brucia's dissent in the Nic is addressed by Nicolau. His reasoning is laid out....in the Nic he says Brucia's points actually make a stronger case for the West regarding east pilot's expectations and proper placement when merging seniority.

Now, Bybee's dissent in the 9th's opinion was also addressed. (this is what you are eluding to?). I quoted Tashima in his statements regarding the dissent's remarks, and you east guys think I am taking from the dissent, not the opinion. Not true. Tashima said " the dissent seems to believe defendant is bound by the NIc" (paraphrasing) then offers the opinion that (although he said he can't address the merits due to ripeness) "usapa is at least as free as ALPA to abandon the award".

Well guess what......dissent was right, usapa is bound by the award, ALPA was not free to abandon (and actually mandated by its C&BLs to defend the Nic), and Tashima spelled it out for usapa in the controlling...given by the majority....opinion on the case.

If dissent was right, hows come he lost?

dis·sent

  1. to differ in sentiment or opinion, especially from the majority; withhold assent; disagree (often followed by from ): Two of the justices dissented from the majority decision.

Driver...

 

[A320 Driver]

Are you willing to concede that both pilots had the same amount of seniority at their respective airlines before the merger, i.e. they were the junior pilot on their respective lists?

Are you willing to concede that seniority and longevity are not the same thing?

Did we have a seniority integration or a longevity integration?

I DON'T CARE JAKE!
I was just answering a question. Argue with someone else.

Driver...

 

[nic4us]

I haven't spent much time thinking about west retirees, but I'd say you are correct. Please tell me Ames is one of those retiring. At least the senior of those retiring got to keep their seniority that was massively diluted with the Nic.

The junior will be better off? Perhaps, we will see, but not so far.

I do not know who Ames is...so I have no idea when he retires.

The junior are not better off now because of usapa....I was saying the West junior will be better off once usapa is gone. Colello stole Odell's job because usapa aided Colello, and more obviously the east furloughees who were recalled to the West as per the TA, then allowed to transfer back east when they got furloughed from the west......out of seniority, aided by usapa and in violation of the TA.

 

[traderjake]

I DON'T CARE JAKE!
I was just answering a question. Argue with someone else.

Driver...

You don't care what?

That the East and West pilots with the same seniority after the merger had the same seniority before the merger?

 

[nic4us]

I don't know about the 17 year guys about to be furloughed from US. Maybe, but the 2 I know of in that seniority range were not about to be furloughed, we were very short on pilots, but theythought we were going out of business and jumped ship. A very bad career move as their peers are now captains and they are 7 year west F/Os, if not furloughed.

You guys mix and match terms. "Certainly WOULD have....." but we didn't. "Had no career expectations....." but we are still working for the airline. You never mention that Nicolau put many, many west guys in line to get positions they NEVER had an expectation of. Why did the west qualify for non-existent expectations, but not the east? Human nature I guess. I think Brucia nailed it, but he had no power, just words. Kinda like us! :blush:

Actually, they made a good career move at the time they made their decision. How would they know that the east would scab the job they just left the east to obtain?

Also, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say Nic gave the West positions they never had expectations of? do you mean widebodies...and are you talking about the doubling in size of the 330 fleet that east has stolen from the West, or are you refereing to the launch customer status for the 350 that the merger brought that the east would also like to steal?

 

[traderjake]

• Already agreed upon implementation of Preferential Bid System on day one. This will wipe out up to 500 jobs overnight on the US Airways east system and will nullify the same amount of long awaited pilot attrition due to retirements starting in December 13, 2012. This will affect every pilot, every aircraft, and every seat and will be felt from top to bottom. Pilot created line construction, lead in/out conflicts, vacation trip drops, and training conflict trip drops are gone. Daily processing of open time, the Bid sheet and the AIL are gone. Open time trip awards based on seniority – gone. USAPA has a standing resolution abolishing Preferential Bidding yet the APA/management term sheet gave this away at the first whack.
• DeWitt Ingram
  CLT USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives
  Candidate for Appeal Board seat 3
• "DimWitt" thinks we should continue to featherbed while we have massive retirements.
• I say we should let the company become more efficient and make them pay us for the increased efficiency.

 

[EastUS1]

Actually, they made a good career move at the time they made their decision.

Ummm...ok then...think about that a bit more....

"Also, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say Nic gave the West positions they never had expectations of? " Almost immediately followed by: "...and are you talking about the doubling in size of the 330 fleet that east has stolen from the West..." What frikkin' 330 fleet did the west EVER even have?...Or was even viable as a plausible fantasy? Sigh!....At least try to be serious for even one time. 😉

 

[nic4us]

Ummm...ok then...think about that a bit more....

"Also, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say Nic gave the West positions they never had expectations of? " Sigh!....At least try to be serious for even one time. 😉

So...what positions did Nic give the West that they had no expectation?

If you answere that Nic gave them a position they never would have held at US...well then you would be correct...but, we do not work for US, we work for LCC and Nic gave east pilots positions at LCC they never would have held and had no expectation of at US.

So...what is the point? we all know the east thinks they are entittled to the West's positions at LCC.

 

[EastUS1]

So...what positions did Nic give the West that they had no expectation?

The continued joking is amusing. Thanks for the laughs. Call us all the first moment any 330 is based in PHX....or was even imagined to ever be. The west's 767 fleet...? Would you care to address that as well? While we're at it...perhaps some additional thoughts/jokes about the west's international ops....?

"Shirley".....you just can't possibly be serious 😉

 

[luvthe9]

That's says it all, but thanks for admitting both pilots had the same seniority.

FeaTherbedding? What do you call it when a 4 day trip consists of three overworked days and one leg back? How about we take Southwests system in entirety? This management is pathetic. And you are all in.

 

[Ames]

I have a list and it looks like this...

Junior AWE pilot was hired 04/04/2005 and was born in 1971
US pilot one number junior to him was hired 07/18/1988 and born in 1952.

Looks like a differential of almost 17 years to me. Also, look at the age difference! The AWE guy was 34 in 2005 while the US guy was 53.

I don't think anyone from 1988 got furloughed...I thought it was the pilots hired in 1989 and below, but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure what this particular argument was about, but I just can't stand an unanswered question so I poked my nose in.

Driver...

Your 1988 hire was the senior most furloughed pilot at the time of the merger. FURLOUGHED. I don't care that he was hired 17 years prior and certainly don't care how old he was. The young man from AWA that you referred to is "save Dave", who was NOT FURLOUGHED at the time of the merger.

It does not matter what you fools believe that you are entitled to; a furloughed employee should NEVER be placed senior to one who was actively working.

 

[Metroyet]

• Already agreed upon implementation of Preferential Bid System on day one. This will wipe out up to 500 jobs overnight on the US Airways east system and will nullify the same amount of long awaited pilot attrition due to retirements starting in December 13, 2012. This will affect every pilot, every aircraft, and every seat and will be felt from top to bottom. Pilot created line construction, lead in/out conflicts, vacation trip drops, and training conflict trip drops are gone. Daily processing of open time, the Bid sheet and the AIL are gone. Open time trip awards based on seniority – gone. USAPA has a standing resolution abolishing Preferential Bidding yet the APA/management term sheet gave this away at the first whack.
• DeWitt Ingram
  CLT USAPA Board of Pilot Representatives
  Candidate for Appeal Board seat 3
• "DimWitt" thinks we should continue to featherbed while we have massive retirements.
• I say we should let the company become more efficient and make them pay us for the increased efficiency.

Guys like this are true Dinosaurs. They don't have the slightest idea of how this game is played in the post 1983 world. What they really demand is a time machine...which explains the loa 93 progress and their DOH quest failures.

 

[Ames]

Tell YOU what...I don't really CARE! I was just providing intel. Maybe Ames should have talked to you, huh?

LOL!!!

Driver...

Intel? Hardly!

 

[Ames]

Oh Ames that really stings coming from you, the angriest of the AFOs.

It's really funny when you and your friends say that you will remember us forever and Karma will gets us, you compare us to David and Goliath, name your defense fund AOL. David and Goliath, they were on opposite teams!!!!! We are not. Whatever damages us will damage you. I just don't get that line of thinking.

I'm not angry. I am, however, realistic and I believe that myself and my AWA peers will resist you idiots to the very end - which is coming soon. Brace yourself.