June - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Bottom line this thing.

Here are the east attrition numbers. Don't forget the west also has our own attrition.
E190 19 (2 F/O)
737 83
AB 265
767 140 (102 captain, 38 F/O)
330 133 (87 captain, 46 F/O)

The Nicolau list is ratioed at 2 out of 3 upgrades go to the east.
So what is the east "giving up" or as you say what is the west stealing?
Well we also hold an arbitration that the west is supposed to have 1/3 of the 190 seats.

Over the next 5 years what did Nicolau "give" the west

737 27 seats
320 87 seats
767 33 captain seats 12 fo seat
330 28 captain seats 15 fo seats

For a total of 202 seat over 5 years. 40 seats a years boys. That is what you are fighting for. Just in parity ($100,000,000) you are paying $2.5 million a seat. I sure hope you think your seniority is not for sale because that is a very steep price to pay.

How many WB seats were added since the merger that you never would have had without it?

40 seats per year! Less than 1% of the total seat but you east guys want it all. So instead of sharing some you get nothing. Enjoy LOA 93 for a long time.

 

[Move2CLT]

Ashame AOL has cost the senior west pilots all this money they would have been able to bid the 330/767 once again the west has overplayed their hand and now with the merge with AA they will lose even more, hope it was worth it!!

Said the guy on LOA93. Looks like another trip to the shitter with that post.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Read carefully. I did not say it has zero value. I said it has a lot less value than you are putting on it.

Well in the last 10 months I have move up 57 numbers with "officially" no retirements going on. Age 65 does not kick in till december. So yes i do think our attrition has the value that I am putting on it.

Why didn't they protect the attrition instead of going for DOH? I have no clue and it is a huge screw job as far as i am concerened. But that was ALPA and seeing as how that little tidbit was the last straw that ended up with them tossed off the property, Its just a guess but I suspect most of my east co workers feel the same way about how they went about it.

Contrary to what you want to believe the line pilots had very little say in how ALPA handled that process. They did have a say in booting ALPA out of the place though. So if you want to see what was important to the line guys all you have to do is see how they reacted to ALPA East MEC's direction they took in the negotiations with the west.

Having said that you won't find too many on the east that agree with half the militant stuff we saw out of USAPA the last couple years either. Hoping the new leaders are more moderate. However at the east we basically have 2 types of pilots on the line now. Those guys that know no matter what even in an AMR merger that they won't see any gain out of it and are finishing up till 65. And the guys junior to them that know they are completly screwed under NIC because it gives up the only thing they have gong for them...their attrition.

 

[Keroseneuser]

For a total of 202 seat over 5 years. 40 seats a years boys.

Hmm, odd. If your numbers are correct how did I move up 57 numbers in the last 10 months? Attrition is not just about captain seats you know. Wonder how many guys that are on short call reserve are waiting for a line? Or how many guys on the 190 are waiting for the Bus? Etc. Etc. 40 seats in 5 years is a huge number for a guy that ONLY has 5 years or less left to get to a left seat! Using your numbers of 155 of the over 60 guys currently are f/o's I bet those 40 seats are pretty important to them. Means difference between retiring as f/o or capt.

I don't think you are considering any of the QOL issues that we old farts on the east rate above simple payscales. The amount of guys we have NOT bidding Captain that could hold it due to QOL issues is huge. Just look at the seniority numbers for the F/O side on the WB's and the small bus.

When referring to the "line" pilots on the east you have to consider even if you don't want to the guys that you are not factoring in using your NIC list. Roughly 1/3 of the east active list does not appear in your calculations. However they DO vote and fly daily as they have for years with the other guys that do factor in your list. Like it or not when you are talking NIC and trying to convince the east guys that it's in their best interest to take NIC the current active east list looks nothing like it did in 2005. Even by the time NIC was published in 2007 the list looked nothing like it did in 2005.

 

[oscarjazz]

Delta's TA passed. Starting Jan 1st, 12 yr A-320 FIRST OFFICER pay is $134.75. Captain is $197.29. Keep fighting amongst yourselves it is providing great returns for you.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Delta's TA passed. Starting Jan 1st, 12 yr A-320 FIRST OFFICER pay is $134.75. Captain is $197.29. Keep fighting amongst yourselves it is providing great returns for you.

If we had an offer like that on the table NIC could pass tomorrow. However we are blessed with Team Tempe running this show and the chances of seeing anything remotly close to that is just a pipe dream here. Doug is pulling out all the stops to woo AA, even his offer to them is no where close to that.

Its not just one factor around here that is the issue. Its all of them rolled into one. To here the west tell it all we have to do is start flying on a joint list using NIC and Parker will somehow change his stripes and make us a top teir pay airline. Team Tempe would rather see their proverbial mothers pushed off a cliff than do that.

 

[Move2CLT]

If we had an offer like that on the table NIC could pass tomorrow. However we are blessed with Team Tempe running this show and the chances of seeing anything remotly close to that is just a pipe dream here. Doug is pulling out all the stops to woo AA, even his offer to them is no where close to that..

So seniority IS for sale.

Luv, I thought you said it wasn't but here you have an eastie ready to jump all over the Nic for a price.

 

[fatherabraham]

Delta's TA passed. Starting Jan 1st, 12 yr A-320 FIRST OFFICER pay is $134.75. Captain is $197.29. Keep fighting amongst yourselves it is providing great returns for you.

Oscar,

DP loves to bemoan " IF only we we had a combined pilot group " all would be utopia in negotiating a contract and the " faux lottery ticket " holders cling to every DP word in dire hopes the East will " drink the cool aide ".

FIVE + years and fewer East folk ready to swallow the Jim Jones juice each and every day that passes.

DP is using our dispute to clearly NOT bargain in good faith and our pathetic government is allowing it to happen. Simple as that!

It's DP's MO and untill outside forces change his motivation, I expect no change.

FA

 

[luvthe9]

Said the guy on LOA93. Looks like another trip to the shitter with that post.

Sorry Move, I've adapted long time ago to LOA93, it's really not a big concern at least to me.

 

[luvthe9]

Delta's TA passed. Starting Jan 1st, 12 yr A-320 FIRST OFFICER pay is $134.75. Captain is $197.29. Keep fighting amongst yourselves it is providing great returns for you.

That's great, I'm glad for you guys.

 

[Keroseneuser]

So seniority IS for sale.

Luv, I thought you said it wasn't but here you have an eastie ready to jump all over the Nic for a price.

Not really Move. In a hypothetical place where the f/o pay rates are $9.75 more an hour than current captain pay rates then yes, NIC could pass. Due to the fact that every single pilot at the airline would in effect be an instant captain pay wise.

Now the chances that Doug would ever in his wildest dreams offer such a payrate AND not gut every other part of the contract in doing so is somewhere around the same chances that I have of being voted Time magazines next sexiest man of the year. Which is zero.

So while technically yes you could get a NIC to pass on a vote in a perfect world. It is not going to happen.

 

[cleardirect]

Hmm, odd. If your numbers are correct how did I move up 57 numbers in the last 10 months? Attrition is not just about captain seats you know. Wonder how many guys that are on short call reserve are waiting for a line? Or how many guys on the 190 are waiting for the Bus? Etc. Etc. 40 seats in 5 years is a huge number for a guy that ONLY has 5 years or less left to get to a left seat! Using your numbers of 155 of the over 60 guys currently are f/o's I bet those 40 seats are pretty important to them. Means difference between retiring as f/o or capt.

I don't think you are considering any of the QOL issues that we old farts on the east rate above simple payscales. The amount of guys we have NOT bidding Captain that could hold it due to QOL issues is huge. Just look at the seniority numbers for the F/O side on the WB's and the small bus.

When referring to the "line" pilots on the east you have to consider even if you don't want to the guys that you are not factoring in using your NIC list. Roughly 1/3 of the east active list does not appear in your calculations. However they DO vote and fly daily as they have for years with the other guys that do factor in your list. Like it or not when you are talking NIC and trying to convince the east guys that it's in their best interest to take NIC the current active east list looks nothing like it did in 2005. Even by the time NIC was published in 2007 the list looked nothing like it did in 2005.

If QOL is such a huge issue for you. Why oh why would you think it is any less for the west? While our pay rate may not have been the best our work rules and QOL contract was much better. As a matter of fact what is usapa whining about losing with APA? The west contract provisions.

Why do you think that the west would all come charging east just to get the wonderful WB F/O position? The 767 goes down to 89% of your list. That can't be great, desirable or valuable flying if it goes so junior.

 

[cleardirect]

If we had an offer like that on the table NIC could pass tomorrow. However we are blessed with Team Tempe running this show and the chances of seeing anything remotly close to that is just a pipe dream here. Doug is pulling out all the stops to woo AA, even his offer to them is no where close to that.

Its not just one factor around here that is the issue. Its all of them rolled into one. To here the west tell it all we have to do is start flying on a joint list using NIC and Parker will somehow change his stripes and make us a top teir pay airline. Team Tempe would rather see their proverbial mothers pushed off a cliff than do that.

Wait, wait wait. first you say.

I don't think you are considering any of the QOL issues that we old farts on the east rate above simple payscales. The amount of guys we have NOT bidding Captain that could hold it due to QOL issues is huge. Just look at the seniority numbers for the F/O side on the WB's and the small bus.

Next you say that with delta rate it would pass with the Nicolau ignoring the QOL issues.

You guys really are hard to keep up with. The only thing I can figure is you want it all. You wan tthe pay rates, you want the QOL isses and you want the upgrades leaving nothing for the west.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Oscar,

DP loves to bemoan " IF only we we had a combined pilot group " all would be utopia in negotiating a contract and the " faux lottery ticket " holders cling to every DP word in dire hopes the East will " drink the cool aide ".

FIVE + years and fewer East folk ready to swallow the Jim Jones juice each and every day that passes.

DP is using our dispute to clearly NOT bargain in good faith and our pathetic government is allowing it to happen. Simple as that!

It's DP's MO and untill outside forces change his motivation, I expect no change.

FA

So in addition to being in the self-appointed role of determining what is or is not fair in a seniority integration now you also get to self-determine what is or is not good faith negotiations? Has the NMB determined that the company isn't making good faith attempts to come to a bargaining agreement with the pilots? Has a federal court or any other neutral third-party made that determination? Quite the opposite really. Obviously they have not so let me ask you, how is offering $120m in annual wage improvements (mostly gained by east pilots) not a good faith offer? You are entitled of your own volition to reject such an offer if your CBA would ever put it out for a vote, but rejecting an offer that does not meet your expectations does not mean the offer can be classified as being in bad faith.

On the other hand, a CBA that continually proposes/demands a seniority list be adopted in violation of a duly executed collective bargaining agreement (Transition Agreement) which places them squarely in the cross hairs of violating the DFR regulations of the RLA is anything but good faith negotiations. The Company has not accused USAPA of bath faith, but they did bring a lawsuit against to counter the untenable position that USAPA holds regarding their faulty interpretation of federal law. So, if judge Silver grants relief on Count 1 then we can all objectively say that USAPA has been engaged in bad faith negotiations since their nefarious inception.

 

[cleardirect]

Delta's TA passed. Starting Jan 1st, 12 yr A-320 FIRST OFFICER pay is $134.75. Captain is $197.29. Keep fighting amongst yourselves it is providing great returns for you.

Excuse me. What union was able to negotiate those rates?


12 year 320 F/O $134.75 DAL
12 year 320 Capt. $124.00 East.
12 year 320 Capt. $172.00 APA offer
12 year 320 capt. $197.29 DAL

Damn I guess seniority is not for sale. The east is paying for everyday.