Ladies and Gentlemen:How do we best fix this mess?

[Charlie_Tuna]

Here is a point I am very concenred about.

Considering the toxic relationship that now exists between the East and West pilots, if the Nicolau Award was every implemented and 30-year old America West 6-year seniority Captain was in the left seat and a 50-year old 20-year tenure US Airways First Officer was in the right seat there would be enormous pressure and conflict in the cockpit.

And how would that be better then if the award was reversed and now the 50 year old 20 year tenor was left seat and the 30 year old 6 year was in right seat because the 50 year old after agreeing to abide by a legally binding arbitration award then whined, cried and threatened until somehow he had the award reversed (THAT ain't gonna happen)

 

[EastUS]

"And how would that be better then if the award was reversed and now the 50 year old 20 year tenor was left seat and the 30 year old 6 year was in right seat..."

You're right Charlie...it's far, far safer and saner to have some guy with 6 years experience calling the shots

 

[USA320Pilot]

The way out of this mess is a permanent fence around West Coast and East Coast crew bases with equal restrictions on growth opportunities. That way the America West pilots keep everything they had before the merger, the US Airways pilots keep everything they had before the merger, and the parties share the new growth opportunities/negotiate normal scope protections. This idea can still be negotiated between the parties, which would stop the turmoil.

Right now the entire labor relation issues and operational integration is in "gridlock" and will not move for many, many years.

Nobody's seniority would change, a new contract could be negotiated together, other labor groups could get raises too, the operation could be combined, and the toxic relationship would begin to defuse.

What's wrong with this idea?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[safety stud]

The way out of this mess is a permanent fence with restricitons. That way out the America West pilots keep everything they had before the merger, the US Airways pilots keep everything they had before the merger, and the parties share the new growth opportunities/negoiatate normal scope protections. This idea can still be negotiated between the parties to stop the turmoil.

Nobody's seniority would change, a new contract could be negotiated together, other labor groups could get raises too, the operation could be combined, and the toxic relationship would begin to defuse.

What's wrong with this idea?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

The sad but true fact is the west doesn't want that...
You see, it doesn't benefit them...
Anything that makes sense is always poo-pooed by the west...

Just my opinion...

 

[TechBoy]

Considering the toxic relationship that now exists between the East and West pilots, if the Nicolau Award was every implemented and 30-year old America West 6-year seniority Captain was in the left seat and a 50-year old 20-year tenure US Airways First Officer was in the right seat there would be enormous pressure and conflict in the cockpit.

Are pilots really that childish and unprofessional? The rest of the world deals with the fact that people often work for others who are younger and have less experience than they do. I have several employees who are older than I am and they do not seem to have any difficulty in performing their jobs with professionalism. One of them wanted my job very much, and while I'm sure that he is disappointed and unhappy that I have it, he still works well with our team.

I don't believe that most pilots aren't mature enough to handle themselves.

All the sturm und drang on these boards are pilots blowing off steam. It's a healthy things, but at the end, they will go back to work and do a professional job.

If we believed all the doom and gloom about pilots "shutting the place down" was real, then US would have folded long, long ago.

 

[EastUS]

"

The way out of this mess is a permanent fence aroudn West Coast and East Coast crew bases with equal restrictions on growth opportunites. That way the America West pilots keep everything they had before the merger, the US Airways pilots keep everything they had before the merger, and the parties share the new growth opportunities/negotiate normal scope protections. This idea can still be negotiated between the parties, which would stop the turmoil.

Right now the entire labor raltion issues and operational integration is in "gridlock" and will not move for many, many years.

Nobody's seniority would change, a new contract could be negotiated together, other labor groups could get raises too, the operation could be combined, and the toxic relationship would begin to defuse.

What's wrong with this idea?"

I can see some logistical issues...but this is the sanest fix I can see for this mess. The only people that would be bitterly opposed would be those who seek a windfall.

 

[USCREW]

The rest of the world deals with the fact that people often work for others who are younger and have less experience than they do. I have several employees who are older than I am and they do not seem to have any difficulty in performing their jobs with professionalism. One of them wanted my job very much, and while I'm sure that he is disappointed and unhappy that I have it, he still works well with our team.

Then you must have some qualification that your employees do not. If they had more, shouldn't they have your position?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Bob do you realize what the mediation/arbitration was about? Does seniority and numbers ring a bell?? Of course seniority and number goes hand and hand with career expectations and many other things.

I don't deny that some Pilots have something to complain about but it doesn't matter how the award was different then it is now you will still have some that are going to complain still have some that are going to think it is fair and still have some that are going to think it is unfair.

My problem with the whole thing is the East Pilots crying and trying to hold everyone else hostage because they feel the got a raw deal on a award that they agreed to accept as legally binding. The sourest of grapes. Even IF the East got their way now do you ever think West would become content after going all-in and then having rug pulled out from under them?

You and others keep talking like lawyers. I am looking at it from the standpoint of a pilot who has been through multiple mergers.

You keep arguing that the award, in a technical sense, meets legal requirements. The T's are crossed, the I's are dotted.

I am saying it is unworkable, as in it will not work. You are looking at an operational meltdown which will lead to a financial meltdown. You are looking at an unsafe cockpit environment when you meld the two lists together. You may be looking at decertification of ALPA.

So you may have an award that the lawyers will bless - but its unworkable.

And no, I did not pick the arbitrator. Neither did any other line pilot out east. I assumed that the system would work fairly and equitably. It did not.

So the question is how do we fix it. The answer is not "well you guys are stuck with it".

 

[EastUS]

[
"So you may have an award that the lawyers will bless - but its unworkable.

And no, I did not pick the arbitrator. Neither did any other line pilot out east. I assumed that the system would work fairly and equitably. It did not.

So the question is how do we fix it. The answer is not "well you guys are stuck with it"."
[/quote]

I believe the utter travesty of it all's well (if unintentionally😉 summed up by a previous comment by Charlie Tuna:

"And how would that be better then if the award was reversed and now the 50 year old 20 year tenor was left seat and the 30 year old 6 year was in right seat..?"

I'm thinking that permanent fences/no loss of flying on either side, may be a workable solution.

 

[Bear96]

Here is a point I am very concenred about.

Considering the toxic relationship that now exists between the East and West pilots, if the Nicolau Award was every implemented and 30-year old America West 6-year seniority Captain was in the left seat and a 50-year old 20-year tenure US Airways First Officer was in the right seat there would be enormous pressure and conflict in the cockpit.

Considering all of the Employee Assistance Program activity that now exists this could create a very unsafe situation in the cockpit, which I know the Safety Department and FAA are concerned about.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

So your argument is, essentially, that East pilots may start crashing planes if they don't get their way?

And that's going to persuade people that East pilots are just looking for a fair, rational solution?

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

You are looking at an unsafe cockpit environment when you meld the two lists together. You may be looking at decertification of ALPA.

And no, I did not pick the arbitrator. Neither did any other line pilot out east. I assumed that the system would work fairly and equitably. It did not.

So the question is how do we fix it. The answer is not "well you guys are stuck with it".

Again I ask if it is reversed will it be safer in flight deck? You know the answer

No the answer isn't you guys are stuck with it. The answer is you agreed to it and you are legally bound by it and I would imagine (I am not sure if this has been brought up) you would be subject to damages (monetary) by not abiding to it.

You pay your representatives to represent you and from what I understand they picked the arbitrator for you. So that excuse don't hold water

Did you also assume it would work "fairly and equitably" for 100% of the Pilots or just "fair and equitable" to you personally?

 

[jack mama]

Is the source of the anger the fact that Furloughed East Pilots are below active West Pilots? Shouldn't the active employees stay and not be displaced by furloughed East pilots?

 

[EastUS]

Again I ask if it is reversed will it be safer in flight deck? You know the answer"

Well..shucks Charlie...It may amaze you to learn that experience does actually make for a higher margin of safety. Ask any given passenger which setup they'd prefer:

1) Your 30 year old "Captain"?

2) A fifty year old who can literally measure his flight time in years?

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

I believe the utter travesty of it all's well (if unintentionally😉 summed up by a previous comment by Charlie Tuna:

"And how would that be better then if the award was reversed and now the 50 year old 20 year tenor was left seat and the 30 year old 6 year was in right seat..?"

You took my comment out of context 🙂 no worry I am sure we all do that at one time or another (they do tell use not to quote the whole post)...of course my comment was related to terror in the flight deck syndrome that you guys are manifesting here.

 

[TechBoy]

Then you must have some qualification that your employees do not. If they had more, shouldn't they have your position?

Perhaps I do the job better.

Seniority has little to do with skill or qualification. It is merely a rubric used because, while flawed, it is often better than any other system. There is nothing intrisically fair about it. It's just one method of handling relative employee pay and benefits. Most of the world does not use it. Even the French are starting to get over socialism -- perhaps the pilots can follow next?

But seriously, does anybody really think that pilots are not professional enough to handle themselves in the cockpit with a younger captain? And if they can't, should they be flying at all?