Ladies and Gentlemen:How do we best fix this mess?

[Freighterguynow]

Piedmont placed the Empire pilots on the bottom, but was done so because of their refusal to join ALPA in the past.

I believe the Empire pilots retained DOH for the bases and equipment they brought to the merger.

Only when bidding out of base and/ or new aircraft did they have a new seniority number.

Not commenting on the fairness of the seniority integration here just mentioning the were some protections.

 

[EastUS]

"

You took my comment out of context 🙂 no worry I am sure we all do that at one time or another (they do tell use not to quote the whole post)...of course my comment was related to terror in the flight deck syndrome that you guys are manifesting here."

OK...but do, most kindly, elaborate upon just exactly how it makes ANY sense to put far less experienced people in command of aircraft when alternatives exist?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not commenting on the fairness of the seniority integration here just mentioning the were some protections.

And they still have furlough protection based on their Empire DOH - this award affirms that.

Jim

 

[LCC_#1]

I believe the Empire pilots retained DOH for the bases and equipment they brought to the merger.

Only when bidding out of base and/ or new aircraft did they have a new seniority number.

Not commenting on the fairness of the seniority integration here just mentioning the were some protections.

Thank you. You are correct.

 

[Freighterguynow]

The answer is you agreed to it and you are legally bound by it

I didn't agree to concessions.

If I'm in the right seat of a 737 and unmerged East retirements gets me a Captain job in the next 2 years - then a merged list taking away 16 years seniority better produce a contract that pays 737 First Officers Captain rates.

See the problem?

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

I didn't agree to concessions.

See the problem?

Of course I see a problem and i am sure in any scenario you could find someone with a problem with their personal award.

And for the hundreth time it doesn't matter what excuse you or anyone give. That fact of the matter (and sounding like a broken record) is both sides agreed to legally binding arbitration. The award was given. It is over. Nothing can change it that I know of. Can anyone come up with a legal challenge to the award or a way that legally without prejudice it would not stick?

 

[soc-hpjester]

LCC -- Tell me. How is my following post "Out of line" ?As far as the pilots go, if the west pilots lost everything and were stapled and if even one HP pilot complained I would love to here the comments from the east of " just suck it up". There would be no sympathy.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So your argument is, essentially, that East pilots may start crashing planes if they don't get their way?

And that's going to persuade people that East pilots are just looking for a fair, rational solution?

If that is what you discerned from my statements....then one of us is stupid.

 

[BoeingBoy]

A pretty good grasp on the fundamentals, there, Bob.....

While DOH (used as shorthand for longevity) is determinate in some areas - what step of the payscale a pilot is on, how much vacation a pilot gets, boarding for non-rev travel if that's the system used, etc - none of that is affected by this award.

This award only affects bidding for equipment, bases, seat, and nothing else. There, DOH doesn't mean squat across airlines. For example, take a UA, a HP, and a US (East) pilot with all three having 15 years of longevity. The first may be a 767 captain, the second a 737 captain, and the third is furloughed. Does their longevity get them all the same result - the same seniority? Obviously not.

That's the problem with mergers - you take pilots who have different seniority for their DOH and force them onto one seniority list.

Doing it by the "one size fits all" method of DOH gives the pilot how didn't have enough seniority to hold a job seniority equal to the pilot who had enough seniority to be a widebody captain (or conversely takes seniority away from the pilot who held a widebody job so that he's equal to the guy who couldn't hold a job).

Some insist that "robbing Peter to pay Paul" is the only fair way while others insist it's fundamentally unfair. And that's what all the fuss is about.

Jim

 

[Bear96]

If that is what you discerned from my statements....then one of us is stupid.

Apparently the "one of us" is you, since I was clearly responding to a post by USA320pilot.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Of course I see a problem and i am sure in any scenario could find someone with a problem with their personal award.

And for the hundreth time it doesn't matter what excuse you or anyone give. That fact of the matter (and sounding like a broken record) is both sides agreed to legally binding arbitration. The award was given. It is over. Nothing can change it that I know of. Can anyone come up with a legal challenge to the award or a way that legally without prejudice it would not stick?

How about windfalls. ALPA merger policy states no windfalls will accrue to one side at the expense of the other.

When a three year seniority pilot jumps ahead of a twenty
year seniority pilot, that fellow just accrued a huge career windfall.

And because of that windfall, all our disproportionate retirements now benefit your group instead of our group...another windfall.

Apparently the "one of us" is you, since I was clearly responding to a post by USA320pilot.

Well...I've been called worse. My apologies.

 

[Bear96]

How about windfalls. ALPA merger policy states no windfalls will accrue to one side at the expense of the other.

When a three year seniority pilot jumps ahead of a twenty
year seniority pilot, that fellow just accrued a huge career windfall.

How is that a "windfall," if pre-merger the 20-yr U guy and the 3-yr AmericaWest guy were each holding the same seat on the same equipment?

 

[Piedmont1984]

How is that a "windfall," if pre-merger the 20-yr U guy and the 3-yr AmericaWest guy were each holding the same seat on the same equipment?

Yes - but which of them should get the next seat? Lets assume both are F/O's. How do you equitably decide, all factors considered, who should be next in line for upgrade?

 

[BoeingBoy]

When a three year seniority pilot jumps ahead of a twenty year seniority pilot, that fellow just accrued a huge career windfall.

You're talking about an industry with a national seniority list and that isn't the airline industry. While one can argue the merits of such a national list, until it exists any effects it might produce are irrevellant.

Across airlines, the same DOH can result in different seniorities while different DOH can result in the same seniority. Seniority is determined by position on the seniority list, and only at a specific airline is that related to DOH.

And because of that windfall, all our disproportionate retirements now benefit your group instead of our group...another windfall.

Funny - I must have missed the part of the award that gave all attrition vacancies to the West pilots and none of them to the East pilots. I did notice that the award shares the attrition from both sides with the pilots of both sides. Except for the widebody attrition - that's reserved for only East pilots for 4 years after the list goes into effect since they brought the widebodies to the table.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Yes - but which of them should get the next seat? Lets assume both are F/O's. How do you equitably decide, all factors considered, who should be next in line for upgrade?

These veteran F/O's in the East have been through all kinds of s*&t in the last twenty years. Many of them actually were captains and have gone back to the right seat.

Of all the factors that go into the language of ALPA merger policy, which one even comes close to seniority, or longevity, or time on the job? Of all the arguments that go into what is fair and equitable, I argue that seniority trumps.