Ladies and Gentlemen:How do we best fix this mess?

[autofixer]

Yes - but which of them should get the next seat? Lets assume both are F/O's. How do you equitably decide, all factors considered, who should be next in line for upgrade?

And that is the point and the issue causing all of the wailing and anger. We understand relative seniority (I personally don't agree with it butit is what it is.), however, we don't understand the lack of fences and the total loss of attrition.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

How about windfalls. ALPA merger policy states no windfalls will accrue to one side at the expense of the other.

When a three year seniority pilot jumps ahead of a twenty
year seniority pilot, that fellow just accrued a huge career windfall.

And because of that windfall, all our disproportionate retirements now benefit your group instead of our group...another windfall.
Well...I've been called worse. My apologies.

LOL "no excuses" means no excuses. The award is not reversable because you think anyone has accrued one windfall or 30 windfalls. If you were worried about windfalls you should have settled while you were in mediation.

 

[Piedmont1984]

You're talking about an industry with a national seniority list and that isn't the airline industry. While one can argue the merits of such a national list, until it exists any effects it might produce are irrevellant.

Across airlines, the same DOH can result in different seniorities while different DOH can result in the same seniority. Seniority is determined by position on the seniority list, and only at a specific airline is that related to DOH.
Funny - I must have missed the part of the award that gave all attrition vacancies to the West pilots and none of them to the East pilots. I did notice that the award shares the attrition from both sides with the pilots of both sides. Except for the widebody attrition - that's reserved for only East pilots for 4 years after the list goes into effect since they brought the widebodies to the table.

You are correct. I am misusing the term seniority. I mean longevity as in DOH, time in service, date of ALPA, take your pick.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes - but which of them should get the next seat? Lets assume both are F/O's. How do you equitably decide, all factors considered, who should be next in line for upgrade?

Nothing like going to extremes to prove a point.....

Nobody can argue than 1 number can be career altering in extreme situations - just ask the senior pilot furloughed in either 1991 or 2002 what 1 number means.

But ordinarily, what does one number mean? Not much. How may bids have you seen with only 1 captain vacancy then no more for years? How many bids where the "next pilot in line" was outbid by a F/O well above him on the list who had been waiting for better seniority before bidding that captain job?

There are many variables in the bidding process, most of which can make far more difference than 1 or 2 seniority numbers do.

Jim

 

[Hawkhunter]

I believe the Empire pilots retained DOH for the bases and equipment they brought to the merger.

Only when bidding out of base and/ or new aircraft did they have a new seniority number.

Not commenting on the fairness of the seniority integration here just mentioning the were some protections.

You are correct and we would take exactly the same deal out east. That wont happen though because the west wouldnt get our jobs. They are getting a woody from this land grab.How about it girls and boys. Will you agree to fences to seperate east from west? Just think, then you wouldnt have to put up with us crybabies. It amazes me how not one westie is complaining about this award. I thought the rule of thumb was if both sides were pissed off then it was fair.

 

[Piedmont1984]

That would be almost the luck of the draw now wouldn't it?

If two people leave at the same time and you have that scenario isn't it also possible that one could "grab" the 737 Captain seat while the other takes the a F/O seat on a widebody because that slot became available due to a retirement later that same day?

I mean really aren't the potential scenarios virtually endless?

Here is my prediction. The east is gonna go all "Hard Ass" without knowing all of the facts or options and promptly get their assets handed to them on a Silver Platter both financially and otherwise by the Sandcastle and the bitterness and rancor will continue until the last US East pilot retires.

I am looking at it from Nicolau's point of view. Here are two pilots, F/O's. One has been with the company twenty years, the other for three years. Which one gets to upgrade to captain, if he chooses, next. Well...let the younger guy do it.

Remember you heard it here first.

Piney

Don't know what I did there, just read between the lines.

 

[Hawkhunter]

Funny - I must have missed the part of the award that gave all attrition vacancies to the West pilots and none of them to the East pilots. I did notice that the award shares the attrition from both sides with the pilots of both sides. Except for the widebody attrition - that's reserved for only East pilots for 4 years after the list goes into effect since they brought the widebodies to the table.

Jim
[/quote]

The west fills the vacancies because they are now senior to us. They get the left seat we move up the list on the right. A guy with 4 years and much younger will get to the left seat sooner. The guy with 21 years and older will get to the left seat much later. Do you get it now Jim? They just got two bites at the apple.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Here is the bottom line.

The US Airways East pilots will never agree to the Nicolau seniority list award and can legally delay or possibly prevent its implementation for years-and-years to come. Thus, what are the options moving forward?

1. Continue a biter fight amongst one another and not obtain a new joint contract. Operate separately and then force the America West pilots into Section VI contract negotiations. The last time this happened it took 4 years for the America West pilots to get a new agreement. Meanwhile, due to the Transition Agreement, the America West pilot will have virtually no upward seniority list movement and will remain stagnant for years-and-years to come.

Then, another fight would likely erupt with the desertification of ALPA on the East property gaining a lot of momentum. Once this is complete, if the two companies were to integrate and combine pilot groups, the NMB would need to hold an election to see what union would represent the pilots and then a new union could be imposed on the America West pilots.

After years-and-years of fighting and a toxic relationship between the parties that would last forever, then the process of negotiating a new contract could be begin again, if the US Airways East pilots elected to do so.

Meanwhile, this process would encourage management to whipsaw the America West pilots because the US Airways pilots would have a lower cost contract and there would be much less incentive for management to reach new contracts with the other unions.

In addition, the US Airways pilots would continue to benefit from significant recalls, advancement from reserve to blockholder, first officer to captain, and narrowbody to widebody positions, which would not be shared at all with the America West pilots

Does anybody want this? No, of course not. But, do not underestimate the US Airways pilots resolve to move forward in the direction described above.

2. The solution: Preserve the career expectations of both the America West and US Airways pilots by creating permanence fences around West and East Coast Crew bases. Agree to an equal distribution of future growth opportunities and provide Section 1 scope protections on minimum fleet counts, minimum block hours, furloughs, etc.

If a negotiated settlement like the one above is not brokered by John Prater, Doug Parker, and Scott Kirby, I see significant turmoil for the company, its stockholders, its employees and its passengers because the pilot groups and operation could not be combined at least for a decade.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Remember you heard it here first.

I beg to differ I have heard that countless other times. I even seen it written several times.

 

[BoeingBoy]

[Piedmont1984{ "You are correct. I am misusing the term seniority. I mean longevity as in DOH, time in service, date of ALPA, take your pick."

That's fine, except that those don't have any bearing on seniority across airlines. If they did, a 20 year US F/O hanging on reserve could quit, get hired by UA, and be a widebody captain. That ain't gonna happen.

With a merger, you're by definition combining seniority across two different airlines. The seniority = DOH rule within one airline doesn't necessarily apply. In fact, ALPA decided that it shouldn't apply. You can argue that ALPA's decision was flawed all you want, but the decision was made democratically and the arbitrator was stuck with it.

As I said in another thread, you bet on DOH and lost. Do you now want to bet your job on some scheme to undo that loss? Or would it be better to move ahead and try to create a situation where everyone can win?

Jim

 

[Bear96]

Here is the bottom line. Blah blah blah.

Wow, that was a lot of words for a "bottom line."

I think the bottom line is more like this:

The merged seniority list has been determined by the arbitrator.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Here is the bottom line.

The US Airways East pilots will never agree to the Nicolau seniority list award and can legally delay or possibly prevent its implementation for years-and-years to come. Thus, what are the options moving forward?

Well gee Mr Pilotman since you are speaking for "ALL" the East Pilots I guess everyone should run with their tails between their legs and succumb to your threats and the using arbitration for settlements should be thrown out the door because they hold no water.

I hope AWA Pilots sue you and anyone that supports for damages. You are a disgrace to the uniform. I pity you.

 

[Piedmont1984]

[Piedmont1984{ "You are correct. I am misusing the term seniority. I mean longevity as in DOH, time in service, date of ALPA, take your pick."

That's fine, except that those don't have any bearing on seniority across airlines. If they did, a 20 year US F/O hanging on reserve could quit, get hired by UA, and be a widebody captain. That ain't gonna happen.

With a merger, you're by definition combining seniority across two different airlines. The seniority = DOH rule within one airline doesn't necessarily apply. In fact, ALPA decided that it shouldn't apply. You can argue that ALPA's decision was flawed all you want, but the decision was made democratically and the arbitrator was stuck with it.

As I said in another thread, you bet on DOH and lost. Do you now want to bet your job on some scheme to undo that loss? Or would it be better to move ahead and try to create a situation where everyone can win?

Jim

Because DOH does not have "legal" bearing across airlines is precisely the reason we have this predicament here. And when you say ALPA decided it should not apply, you mean UAL decided it should not apply.

And I also recall the phrase "do you now want to bet your job" during bankruptcy I, bankruptcy II, and LOA 93.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

Jim as usual you are the voice of reason and to think the day would come that Pilots or anyone for that matter would side with A320 as being right and you wrong just boggles the mind.

Will wonder never cease

 

[USA320Pilot]

Charlie,

The same options open to the US Airways East pilots are open to the America West pilots.

Doug Parker has said he can operate the combined operation separately with the current contracts. From an operational perspective, this is all the US Airways East pilots are suggesting. From a union perspective this is a different matter, but nobody on the East wants to leave ALPA or create union imposition on the America West pilots.

What is wrong with a permanent West and East coast fence, shared growth, and shared scope protection?

Nobody wants to see a fight and the solution I propose above would prevent a pilot war.

PineyBob,

PineyBob asked: Have you even put a pencil and calculator to this decision and do you know how it effects you?

USA320Pilot comments: Yes, more on that tonight.

PineyBob said: All of this poop stirring serves little purpose and you know in your heart that your group doesn't have the will to kick ALPA anyplace. We know this because of their track record with the RC 4 and all of that.

USA320Pilot answers: Every US Airways MEC member is in support of my comments. How do I know? I have talked with them and they gave me the ideas.

Regards,

USA320Pilot