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Ladies and Gentlemen:How do we best fix this mess?

  • Thread starter Thread starter EastUS
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Hey I'm NOT advocating that in any way. Charlie_Tuna seems to think the Award is etched on some kind of Stone Tablet. I was just presenting a scenario.

Besides if History is an accurate indicator US ALPA would not have the belly for that. As far as it goes I don't think HP ALPA would have the backbone to resist an action of that type either.

The society we live in is to "ME" oriented for a workgroup as well paid as pilots to make a stand.

Just one man's opinion.

Well I too don't think that both ALPAs would be willing to go that far either. I don't have the answer to solve our problems but I don't believe in holding the well being of the company and other employee jobs hostage over the seniority list is a noble cause. Good luck to us all. Blue skies.
 
But I understand that Nicolau's awards have been overturned in the past. It had to do with a sports arbitration some time ago.
I think you misunderstand what happened. Being dropped from the list of arbitrators used isn't overturned - any awards still stand. Even if another arbitrator, dealing with a very similar case, decided differently, it isn't being overturned - the previous award still stands.

Having a decision overturned generally means having it thrown out or reversed after appealing to some higher authority. You'll have a hard time finding that in binding arbitration agreed to by both sides absent proof of fraud, misconduct, etc. Especially when the higher authority - ALPA national - is required to take a hands off position by it's own rules.

Now, if you can prove that someone paid the arbitrator off, or that he was out to get the East pilots for some reason you might have a case.

Jim
 
I think you misunderstand what happened. Being dropped from the list of arbitrators used isn't overturned - any awards still stand. Even if another arbitrator, dealing with a very similar case, decided differently, it isn't being overturned - the previous award still stands.

Having a decision overturned generally means having it thrown out or reversed after appealing to some higher authority. You'll have a hard time finding that in binding arbitration agreed to by both sides absent proof of fraud, misconduct, etc. Especially when the higher authority - ALPA national - is required to take a hands off position by it's own rules.

Now, if you can prove that someone paid the arbitrator off, or that he was out to get the East pilots for some reason you might have a case.

Jim

You know.....your not helping me here.
 
There can be binding and non-binding arbitration. A "binding" arbitration generally means that the winning party can take an arbitration award to a court of law and enforce it if the losing party does not comply with the terms of the decision.

West Pilots I suggest you get a lawyer and get ready to take the East Pilots to court...

The Law

Get a Lawyer for what?

I think the arbitrated list will be taken as binding. No litigation necessary. :down:

Now, if the fences that will come with the operation of that list - fences which the geriatric Nicolau forgot about while giving the AAA attrition to AWA - are approved by the majority of that list, where's the basis for litigation.

A seniority list is only a seniority list. The rights and privileges accorded to each person on that list are a contractual matter, no?

A 20-25 year fence between east and west with sharing of new equipment sounds about right. :up:
 
Get a Lawyer for what?

I think the arbitrated list will be taken as binding. No litigation necessary. :down:

Now, if the fences that will come with the operation of that list - fences which the geriatric Nicolau forgot about while giving the AAA attrition to AWA - are approved by the majority of that list, where's the basis for litigation.

A seniority list is only a seniority list. The rights and privileges accorded to each person on that list are a contractual matter, no?

A 20-25 year fence between east and west with sharing of new equipment sounds about right. :up:

I was just going to say that.
 
You know.....your not helping me here.
My intent isn't to help anyone. I just see lots of hotheaded threats thrown around as avenues to the East's salvation and all of them look attractive until you look under the surface. Turns out that about all the assumptions they're based on are either false or assume the best possible outcome while ignoring every other possible outcome.

Wanna operate on two separate contracts? That's what MDA/MAA did until the company decided Republic's money was more valuable than the 170 operation and MDA/MAA went away. Want to bet you job and career on management not deciding that the East pilots are more trouble than they're worth and phasing East out? Think that absolutely could not happen? To paraphrase Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky?"

Jim
 
My intent isn't to help anyone. I just see lots of hotheaded threats thrown around as avenues to the East's salvation and all of them look attractive until you look under the surface. Turns out that about all the assumptions they're based on are either false or assume the best possible outcome while ignoring every other possible outcome.

Wanna operate on two separate contracts? That's what MDA/MAA did until the company decided Republic's money was more valuable than the 170 operation and MDA/MAA went away. Want to bet you job and career on management not deciding that the East pilots are more trouble than they're worth and phasing East out? Think that absolutely could not happen? To paraphrase Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky?"

Jim

You know, you don't have a dog in this fight any more. But for some of those guys you flew with over the years, this perverted decision by Nicolau is their job and careers.

As the list stands right now, I will do O.K. But I take some small pride in saying that those with whom I have worked these past many years deserve better, and I will stand by them.

K
 
You know, you don't have a dog in this fight any more. But for some of those guys you flew with over the years, this perverted decision by Nicolau is their job and careers.

As the list stands right now, I will do O.K. But I take some small pride in saying that those with whom I have worked these past many years deserve better, and I will stand by them.

K

We all deserve better, but that's not an excuse to start disrespecting the law.
 
Piedmont1984,

One more thing. Aside from comedic relief, USA320Pilot serves another useful purpose although he probably doesn't realize it. He's a wonderful window into the mind of the MEC, or at least parts of it. Heck, even I can read the MEC thru his posts from my vantage point.

Look at his posts right after the award was announced - all about getting the award overturned, lawsuits, operating under separate contracts, etc.

Now read his latest posts - full of "let's negotiate eternal fences". Notice the difference? I'll about guarantee you that his "sources" are privately telling him that there no way the award will be overturned or avoided, so he's latched onto the next best option to get himself a widebody left seat job the soonest - renegotiate. He's transparent as glass if you know what to look for.....

Jim
 
It is not law it is a list. It is a list that can be modified. Yes, we could'a should'a negotiated this amongst ourselves, but did we not try that? Let's just throw up some fences and share the new flying and get on with a fair and equitable contract. My goodness, the West is going to inherite the world, do you have to have tomorrow?
 
Piedmont1984,

One more thing. Aside from comedic relief, USA320Pilot serves another useful purpose although he probably doesn't realize it. He's a wonderful window into the mind of the MEC, or at least parts of it. Heck, even I can read the MEC thru his posts from my vantage point.

Look at his posts right after the award was announced - all about getting the award overturned, lawsuits, operating under separate contracts, etc.

Now read his latest posts - full of "let's negotiate eternal fences". Notice the difference? I'll about guarantee you that his "sources" are privately telling him that there no way the award will be overturned or avoided, so he's latched onto the next best option to get himself a widebody left seat job the soonest - renegotiate. He's transparent as glass if you know what to look for.....

Jim

I noticed the same thing. The other day I observed that we must be half way up to the surface of reality since the crazy notion of having a legal remedy appeard to have been purged. Now we're working on decompressing the "ALPA National can fix this" strategy out of the blood stream. I suppose that will go on until the Executive meeting, then that will subside. After that, all we'll hear from then will be the leftover true believers/conspiracists.
 
I think you're right. THAT isn't the windfall. The windfall is the future attrition 'benefit' that has been transferred from east to west. I'd interpret that as a windfall, from a layman's perspective.
Not when you consider the fact that, on the eve of the merger announcement, the 20-yr U guy was likely a couple of weeks from the unemployment line, where there would be no "attrition benefit" at all.
 
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