Look out AA, the unions are mad!

TWU informer

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Nov 4, 2003
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If the stock continues to appreciate, the shareholders really don't care if the company make money or not.


Go feed that garbage to the shareholders at ENRON.

Company Officials used the media to spread false and mis-leading information about the company. ENRON stocks were performing well in the market, until...

...The TRUTH came out.

Then what happened ONEFLYER? Please tell us, what happened next?

Please tell us how those stock holders did not care if the company was making money or not as long as the stock was inflated and doing well. I bet if someone who thinks like you sits on the Jury in Texas, the ENRON crooks will walk free.
 

Oneflyer

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Apr 26, 2004
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So you mentioned the shareholders, aka the owners, don't care if the company profits or not!
Maybe they'll give a #### when the lowly AMT who never learned finance screws up on the aircraft that their greedy lazy asses are flying on because that AMT has to work two jobs and he was too tired to properly perform maintenace and causes that aircraft to crash. Then those fine shareholders can use the money made off their stock to sue the company for negligence.

Well, I agree with you here. Like I've always said, if AMTs leave the industry or the quality of their work declines, then pay rates will increase. Supply & demand.

Go feed that garbage to the shareholders at ENRON.

Company Officials used the media to spread false and mis-leading information about the company. ENRON stocks were performing well in the market, until...

...The TRUTH came out.

Then what happened ONEFLYER? Please tell us, what happened next?

Enron went to 0, just like AMR will one day. I disagree completely that company officials are spreading false and misleading information, but the outcome will be the same. I can't imagine why anyone want to own AMR stock and infact I am currently shorting the stock.
 

Oneflyer

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Apr 26, 2004
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ONEFLYER, SINCE YOU HAVE BELITTLED THE AMT, MAY I INQUIRE WHAT FIELD YOU ARE IN?

Well, up in until about 3 months ago I was a Financial Analyst at AA, now I work in corporate real estate for another company. I left primarily because of upper managements refusal to attack the status quo, take on the unions and change the airline so it can be successful into the future. I left because I wasn't getting raises because AA is scared of upsetting the unions.

IT IS BECAUSE OF PRO MANAGEMENT DESK JOB PENCIL PUSHERS LIKE YOU WHO ALL THINK THEY CAN ADVANCE IN THE COMPANY BY SCREWING THEIR COWORKERS IS THE VERY REASON UNIONS WERE FORMED DECADES AGO.

Save me the worker's of the world unite speach. Union's are slowly killing the USA from our education system to manufacturing the destruction is everywhere. People like you are the reason companies are moving their plants to China and India and elsewhere. Teacher's unions that are more concerned with saving underperforming teacher's jobs than actually educating children are ensuring that our public schools are the worst in the world.

You don't believe me? Then why is private schools with no teacher unions are so superior to public schools, even when the same amount of money is spent per student? Why can't GM & Ford compet with Toyota, even though Toyota makes most of its cars that it sells in the US in the US? Why is that the US economy has continued to grow, but that every single highly unionized industry in the country has shrunk over the last 20-30 years, airlines, manufacturing, steel, ship building? Why is the country's population moving from union strongholds like upstate NY and Michigan to non-union states like Texas & Florida? Why is unemployment highest in heavily unionized area like Detroit?
 
OP
Hopeful

Hopeful

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Dec 21, 2002
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Well, up in until about 3 months ago I was a Financial Analyst at AA, now I work in corporate real estate for another company. I left primarily because of upper managements refusal to attack the status quo, take on the unions and change the airline so it can be successful into the future. I left because I wasn't getting raises because AA is scared of upsetting the unions.
Save me the worker's of the world unite speach. Union's are slowly killing the USA from our education system to manufacturing the destruction is everywhere. People like you are the reason companies are moving their plants to China and India and elsewhere. Teacher's unions that are more concerned with saving underperforming teacher's jobs than actually educating children are ensuring that our public schools are the worst in the world.

You don't believe me? Then why is private schools with no teacher unions are so superior to public schools, even when the same amount of money is spent per student? Why can't GM & Ford compet with Toyota, even though Toyota makes most of its cars that it sells in the US in the US? Why is that the US economy has continued to grow, but that every single highly unionized industry in the country has shrunk over the last 20-30 years, airlines, manufacturing, steel, ship building? Why is the country's population moving from union strongholds like upstate NY and Michigan to non-union states like Texas & Florida? Why is unemployment highest in heavily unionized area like Detroit?

SO YOU'RE WORTH MORE THAN THE LOWLY UNION WORKER!

YOU ARE SOME POMPOUS ARROGANT PIECE OF GARBAGE


THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE, MANAGEMENT BOY!!!!

CORPORATE AMERICA DOES NOT WANT TO PAY ANY WORKER A DECENT WAGE SO THEY SHIP JOBS OVERSEAS! YOU NOTICE THEY DON'T SHIP MANAGEMENT JOBS TO CHINA AND INDIA!

UNIONS ARE DESTROYING THIS COMPANY??????????????????????????????????


CAN YOU SAY ENRON????????????????????
CAN YOU SAY TYCO?????????????????????

IS FORMER TYCO CHAIRMAN KOSLOWSKI YOUR HERO, ONEFLYER???????????

IS IT YOUR GOAL IN LIFE TO USE COMAPNY FUNDS TO PURCHASE A $6000 SHOWER CURTAIN??????????????????

USE COMPANY FUNDS TO THROW YOUR WIFE A FEW MILLION DOLLAR BIRTHDAY PARTY????????????



YOU HAVE SOME SET OF BALLS BLAMING UNIONS FOR THE WOES OF THIS COUNTRY?????????


HOW DO FEEL ABOUT ENRON'S LAY?????????????
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT KOSLOWSKI???????????

HEY REMEMBER YOUR OTHER HERO, DON CARTY? HE WAS THE ONE WHO POINTED THE GUN AT THE EVIL UNIONS HEADS THREATENING BANKRUPTCY WHILE HE SECURED HIS AND THE GANG OF 40'S GOLDEN PARACHUTES????????????????????????
 

Oneflyer

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Apr 26, 2004
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Hopeful, you can't even argue your own side well. Why don't you try telling me why I'm wrong instead of just blanket blaiming of "management"? Why, because you don't know the damn answers you just want your 17.5% back. And you won't get it back until you decide to either learn new skills or go to another company that will pay you more. But a union shlep like you doesn't want to do that, you just want to go to work so you can waste time sitting in the break room smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee.

Being old, bitter, and having absolutely no control over your job sucks doesn't it. Well, welcome to the life of every single union worker.

You named two companies lets see how many I can name that were destroyed or are being destroyed by unions.

GM, Ford, Pan Am, US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, about 15 other steel companies, at least 3 auto parts manufacturers, every textile mill in america, huh looks like I'm up about 100 to 2.
 

TWU informer

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Nov 4, 2003
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Oneflyer,

I can see your point on union workers and company destruction, but I cannot place direct blame on the union for our current demise, however it is very difficult to argue this point.

At AA, corporate managers constantly seek city, state, and Federal pork barrel hand-outs, and in exchange agree to certain employment levels.

In our current situation at AA, it was Don Carty that allowed the "unions" to decide how to reduce cost by $1.8 billion. What should have been done, is drastic reduction in fleet, capacity, and personel, instead, the unions were allowed to come up with the "save the jobs" formula. Instead of reduction in headcount, which would have violated many corporate handout schemes, the company agreed to "keep the jobs". We were already over manned to start with, and Arpey's and other management's cost saving ideas have led to further overages in labor. In Tulsa for instance, there were only a little over 700 laid-off, and for the last three years not one has been re-called, yet we have had retirements, death, resignations, terminations, and we are still over manned. Those attrition reductions equal more than the laid-off in numbers. Imagine how costly keepings them employed for three years and unproductive that must have been. In Tulsa, the Base V.P. and the Local Union President are running a media blitz about obtianing third party work. The truth is, there is plenty of our own AA work being outsourced to keep the over man condition busy, but it appears contracts that management has negotiated with vendors must prohibit the return of that work. So, we sit on butts in the smoke break area, waiting for management, or someone to bring the work.

If management enforced productivity requirements even for our current reduced pay rate, we would run out work in about 1-2 weeks. Thus sitting on ass is allowed, thus productivity suffers even further.

It appears to me that we are trapped in cycle of doom.

But I am not sure the "Union" is soley to blame, nor is "management" solely to blame.

My difficulty with your position is that I don't believe the "unions" should be allowed to decide how to "save" a corporation from Bankruptcy. If American Airlines was in that bad of shape, Carty should have taken the lead and done the correct adjustments instead of pandering to union "jobs,jobs,jobs" philosophies. I can only conlude that corporate hand-outs were preventing the job cuts, so the "unions" were allowed to lead. You cannot blame the unions for that now can you?

The truth is, I have NO USE for either the Local Union Leadership, nor the Base V.P. in Tulsa. They are both blowing a bunch of smoke up the public, the employees, and the upper managements asses. And yes, our future hangs in the balance. These two bed wetters are as far from leaders as would be required to really turn things around as is humanly possible. Both of them were two of the lazy asses you speak of when they were workers instead charade leaders, and neither of them have any credibility with the work force when asking for more.

I would galdly listen to your ideas on how to resolve these problems. I do know that arguments and blame on the interent bulletin board is not that answer.

I know this, there is no requirement in the labor agreement to allow any worker so sit on his ass in the smoke break area, but it happens daily. There is no provision in the labor agreement to allow workers to sit idle while our own work goes to outside vendors, but it happens daily. I know there is no labor agreement provision to have 300+ union workers pretending to be management and running to "working together" meetings instead of producing something in exchange for a paycheck, but it happens daily.

I just wonder though, who is responsible for those work force defects if there is no labor agreement requirement to allow them? Do you have that answer?

In my previous non-union job, management fired the worthless workers and reduced work force levels in tough times. In my previous non-union job, management insured that labor staffing was strictly matched to the work load brought in the door. Do think in a union shop, that is union officers job?

Looking forward to your opinion and ideas to solve this mystery.
 

Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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...Well some people get it right!

We embarked on consciously building Virgin into a brand which stood for quality, value, fun and a sense of challenge. We also developed these ideas in the belief that our first priority should be the people who work for the companies, then the customers, then the shareholders. Because if the staff are motivated then the customers will be happy, and the shareholders will then benefit through the company's success.
Richard Branson
While I'll admit that company culture can be very different from one place to the next the fact is corporations, by definition, have to put the shareholder first.

That said one thing that we do see is that many innovative succussful corporations where employees are treated well tend to be run by exceptional entrepreneurs like Branson, Kellenger?(SWA) etc. I suppose AA was much the same way when CR Smith was runing the show. Their motivation is clear-Long term success and an increase in shareholder value, they actually love the business and would not want to do anything else. These people are so in love with their business that they are willing to make real sacrifices and they value employees as the means to success not a commodity to be exploited for maximum short term gain. Unfortunately the succesors are usually management bred and trained with a focus on the annual report and immediate finiancial gratification, the business equivelent of mercenaries, they could care less whether they are running an airline or selling hamburgers, and they have made that very clear over the years. Most of us who also love this industry are not employed by a visionary entrepreneur but instead by corporate mercenaries who only care about making their millions now and could care less what happens to the airline or its employees. The sooner everyone realizes what they work for the better off we will all be.
 
OP
Hopeful

Hopeful

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Dec 21, 2002
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Hopeful, you can't even argue your own side well. Why don't you try telling me why I'm wrong instead of just blanket blaiming of "management"? Why, because you don't know the damn answers you just want your 17.5% back. And you won't get it back until you decide to either learn new skills or go to another company that will pay you more. But a union shlep like you doesn't want to do that, you just want to go to work so you can waste time sitting in the break room smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee.

Being old, bitter, and having absolutely no control over your job sucks doesn't it. Well, welcome to the life of every single union worker.

You named two companies lets see how many I can name that were destroyed or are being destroyed by unions.

GM, Ford, Pan Am, US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, about 15 other steel companies, at least 3 auto parts manufacturers, every textile mill in america, huh looks like I'm up about 100 to 2.

This post had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

This post was defamatory in nature.

This Post was deleted.
 

Bob Owens

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Sep 9, 2002
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GM, Ford, Pan Am, US Steel, Bethlehem Steel, about 15 other steel companies, at least 3 auto parts manufacturers, every textile mill in america, huh looks like I'm up about 100 to 2.

There is no doubt that unions are a convenient scapegoat for incompetant management.

Explain the fact that Non-union Continental went BK, non union EAL liquidated , Peoples Express and scores of other non-union airlines have also failed.

Did only unionized textile mills fail? Come on, give specifics, the companies you mentioned did not fail because of unions, they failed because of poor management. The steel mills did not modernize, GM and Ford did not design and build cars as well as the unionized car companies in Japan and Europe.

By the way, you only named two, maybe three (not sure about the steel companies) unionized companys that have failed, where are the other 98?
 

eolesen

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Jul 23, 2003
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Explain the fact that Non-union Continental went BK, non union EAL liquidated , Peoples Express and scores of other non-union airlines have also failed.

I can't believe that you of all people would be saying "non-union EAL" knowing full well that EAL was still very much unionized when they filed for bankruptcy. I hold the unions as responsible for EAL's collapse moreso than Lorenzo, mainly because the financial damage was already done before Lorenzo took control. Had the unions played ball with Borman, EAL could have had a fighting chance at survival.

CO's second bankruptcy was triggered in part to financial fallout from Eastern's bankruptcy. IIRC, there was a lot of debt Texas Air was ultimately on the hook for after EAL's liquidation. Lorenzo was to blame there, and the employees didn't really suffer as much in that filing as with other airline filings.

People Express didn't go bankrupt, contrary to popular belief. They were in serious financial difficulty following their acquisition of Frontier, whose shutdown in 1986 took People Express's parent company down with them. Oddly, it was ALPA who ultimately killed Frontier -- Dick Ferris had agreed to buying Frontier from Don Burr, but the UAL pilots balked and killed the deal.

Also, since you brought PE up, it's a strange twist of fate that the Continental which emerged from their second bankruptcy is actually People Express, Inc. renamed to Continental Air Holdings. So, they really didn't fail. They just took on a new name, and so far, CO seems to be doing quite well, especially with the EWR hub that PE brought to the deal.

Did only unionized textile mills fail? Come on, give specifics, the companies you mentioned did not fail because of unions, they failed because of poor management.

To be fair, most of the textile mills failed due to lower priced product being available from places like the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Guatemala, etc., especially after the passage of NAFTA.
 

limit

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Jan 3, 2003
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18
Why can't GM & Ford compet with Toyota, even though Toyota makes most of its cars that it sells in the US in the US?


You asked many questions in the paragraph the quote above is from.
I believe that unions are the party that is the least responsible for Detroit failures.

I understand that most people believe that the wages, benefits and work rules of the union workers at the big three are the reason profits are no where to be found.
While it is obviously true that labor costs will affect any employer, it is my opinion that this is not the reason why the US automotive industry is such a bad shape.
Toyotas and Fords are comparably priced and in many cases Toyota has models that are quite a lot more expensive than Ford and Toyota parts a quite more expensive than domestic parts.
The consumer seems to prefer the Toyota models.
I believe that to be a quality and reliability issue.
Why else would the consumer pay a premium for a product and its parts?
Fords and Toyotas cars and parts are made in the US and other countries.
I do not know if they are both unionized and I do not know either company’s compensation package to its blue collar workers.
It simply does not matter from a sales perspective. Remember that we pay more for a car and parts, for a Camry than we do for a Taurus.
Big Three sales are down because the consumer believes their product to be inferior and is prepared to pay a premium to others.
I would strongly argue that both workforces are similar in ability. Yet one builds better cars.
Are you suggesting that Ford workers do not torque bolts as well as Toyota workers? I sure hope not.
The blue collar worker at US manufacturers is just building the product that management decided to build.
This is strictly a management decision.
US manufacturers chose to build an inferior product. They engineered a product that is inferior.
The 30000 soon to be unemployed workers in the automotive industry and their union brothers are the least responsible for their employer’s losses.
Unless management decides to build a better car, sales will not improve. It does not matter if you build it in Mexico or the US. Union build or not.
People will not buy the cars US management is currently building even at lower prices.
It is not the blue collar worker that is underperforming here people.
 

MCI transplant

Veteran
Jun 4, 2003
5,311
587
Oneflyer,

I can see your point on union workers and company destruction, but I cannot place direct blame on the union for our current demise, however it is very difficult to argue this point.

At AA, corporate managers constantly seek city, state, and Federal pork barrel hand-outs, and in exchange agree to certain employment levels.

In our current situation at AA, it was Don Carty that allowed the "unions" to decide how to reduce cost by $1.8 billion. What should have been done, is drastic reduction in fleet, capacity, and personel, instead, the unions were allowed to come up with the "save the jobs" formula. Instead of reduction in headcount, which would have violated many corporate handout schemes, the company agreed to "keep the jobs". We were already over manned to start with, and Arpey's and other management's cost saving ideas have led to further overages in labor. In Tulsa for instance, there were only a little over 700 laid-off, and for the last three years not one has been re-called, yet we have had retirements, death, resignations, terminations, and we are still over manned. Those attrition reductions equal more than the laid-off in numbers. Imagine how costly keepings them employed for three years and unproductive that must have been. In Tulsa, the Base V.P. and the Local Union President are running a media blitz about obtianing third party work. The truth is, there is plenty of our own AA work being outsourced to keep the over man condition busy, but it appears contracts that management has negotiated with vendors must prohibit the return of that work. So, we sit on butts in the smoke break area, waiting for management, or someone to bring the work.

...
:angry: You know,this whole post pisses me off! The reason you get to set on your fat asses is the fact that your Union,and mine,has provided you with "System Protection!" While you have an excess of people setting on you butts, we are busting ours, because we're the one's that have gone out on the street in your place! Your protected , we're not, so a.a. has cut where they could, and moved work,(737/MD80) to Tulsa to do so!!! If aa dicided to reduce the work force by 1%, guess where it would be? :down:

**Moderator Note: Please refrain from quoting a lengthy post. It just makes it easier for everyone to read follow-on posts. Thank you.**
 

Skymess

Veteran
Aug 6, 2004
1,123
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NY
Well, up in until about 3 months ago I was a Financial Analyst at AA, now I work in corporate real estate for another company. I left primarily because of upper managements refusal to attack the status quo, take on the unions and change the airline so it can be successful into the future. I left because I wasn't getting raises because AA is scared of upsetting the unions.
Save me the worker's of the world unite speach. Union's are slowly killing the USA from our education system to manufacturing the destruction is everywhere. People like you are the reason companies are moving their plants to China and India and elsewhere. Teacher's unions that are more concerned with saving underperforming teacher's jobs than actually educating children are ensuring that our public schools are the worst in the world.

You don't believe me? Then why is private schools with no teacher unions are so superior to public schools, even when the same amount of money is spent per student? Why can't GM & Ford compet with Toyota, even though Toyota makes most of its cars that it sells in the US in the US? Why is that the US economy has continued to grow, but that every single highly unionized industry in the country has shrunk over the last 20-30 years, airlines, manufacturing, steel, ship building? Why is the country's population moving from union strongholds like upstate NY and Michigan to non-union states like Texas & Florida? Why is unemployment highest in heavily unionized area like Detroit?

You're delusional. You're blaming everything on the unions. Here's the bottom line: It's not about the unions. If your product sucks your company will suck. AA, and other legacy carriers, are in the can because of mismanagement. Arpey may be squeezing more money out of a nickel but he still doesn't have a handle on what the flying public wants. They don't want AA cost cutting to suck their experience dry.

Ford is in the hole because they make ugly, unreliable, cars. Period. If they made good cars like Toyota they would be doing well. If they were selling cars like Toyota than pension funding wouldn't be an issue.

You talk about the workers of the world unite mantra. How about the whining, crybaby, cruddy managers of the world unite on their endless blame game of unions for their troubles?

Private schools do better because the classes are smaller and they have the funding to purchase all the supplies they need to do their job. The U.S. public school is a mess because it relies on state funding and loosely controlled curriculum standards. Underprivileged districts lack the budget to adequately provide a decent education. It is not the teachers union that is screwing it up. It is the thought process that your parents economic level determines how well you are educated in a PUBLIC school which makes the all U.S. citizens being equal line a crock of you know what.

You want to know why the country is shifting away from a unionized workforce? Because managers want to wring more money out of the companies for themselves than they can if they have unions. That's why. It's the same reason companies are outsourcing their work force. Greed, greed, greed, greed, greed.
 

TWU informer

Veteran
Nov 4, 2003
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You know,this whole post pisses me off! The reason you get to set on your fat asses is the fact that your Union,and mine,has provided you with "System Protection!" While you have an excess of people setting on you butts, we are busting ours, because we're the one's that have gone out on the street in your place! Your protected , we're not, so a.a. has cut where they could, and moved work,(737/MD80) to Tulsa to do so!!! If aa dicided to reduce the work force by 1%, guess where it would be?

Excuse me? I went and read the "system protection" clause that you made reference to and is says nothing about being allowed to sat on your fat ass instead of working.

You are pissed about the way the seniority issue was handled. I don't blame you there. But please refrain from confusing the two seperate issues. And don't start invoking the seniority victim issue in a claim that it justifies being over manned and unproductive. We tried to tell you what was going to happen to you and your base on "attrition" basis. But you and all of your corporate union buddies at MCI wouldn't listen to what we had to say. Instead you fell for the "just do better and we'll get you more work" bedtime story.

Of course one could probably claim that because of the TWA purchase, there were more heads to cut, and issues to resolve. But then the question goes to Oneflyer, did the unions decide to purchase TWA?

Remember, we were discussing the issue of unions destroying the company, not did the TWA workers get screwed on seniority. ;)

BTW, you are wrong, "my union" has provided nothing but 20+ years of concessions. You have quickly forgotten the "force majeure" and its effect on your "system protection" clause.
 

MCI transplant

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Jun 4, 2003
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<_< No Informer---- I'm not talking the seniority issue here! I'm just trying to point out a contrast that obviously your not aware of! First unlike Tulsa, we've been cut back, head count wise, to the point that we can barely service two 767 Air Canada's at the same time! Word has it that the ALCOA 757s will start to show up on, or about the 7th. of Feb., plus we're to do at least twenty five Saabs "C" Checks, return to lease! All sounds great, except management is insisting that there will be no recall! As for the "protection clause" I referred to, I was just pointing out how we here at MCI got to this point! "Our" work (737'S, and later the MD80's) were sent to Tulsa to keep your protected people working when they put the F-100 fleet on the ground! We were not protected, therefor we were the logical people to be let go! And were! ;)