Mrs. Light Years, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Mda To Republic
- Thread starter Winglet
- Start date
LOL, really?!? 
I thought it was a great example of maintaining control of your own business instead of paying someone else to do it. I thought it was kind of funny too... oh, well, can't win every time....
No hard feelings... I appreciate your honesty. I'll put down the lemonade (and lemonade stories) in the future. B)
I thought it was a great example of maintaining control of your own business instead of paying someone else to do it. I thought it was kind of funny too... oh, well, can't win every time....
No hard feelings... I appreciate your honesty. I'll put down the lemonade (and lemonade stories) in the future.
B) Light Years.... I understand what you were talking about. But I felt it was the perfect time for the 'Billy Madison' effect!!! Just watched the movie and thought I could plug it in on your post. Glad to see you have a sense of humor, and don't take this board too serious like many. Good Day Light!
WSurf said:
Glad to see you have a sense of humor, and don't take this board too serious like many. Good Day Light!
[post="274569"][/post]
Huh?! :unsure:
Oh I get it. This Billy Madison is going to operate the 195's at cost plus 5%. Why not? Everbody else in the world has Contract-Lift with US Airways, so should Billy.
The "lemonade stand" analogy hit the nail on the head.
BoeingBoy said:
I would venture a guess that the answer was worded this way because its not up to US Airways. I would think the merger agreement could be cancelled by America West if US Airways were to sell assets to someone else prior to their agreement being consumated or otherwise terminated. (Why would AWA still acquire US Airways, and their debt, if US sold off key assets to other companies?)
So, I suspect that is the reason for the wording, and why we haven't heard more about this. We will probably hear more when/if the AWA deal is approved, since AWA indicated that they would sell it during the conference call anyway.
And, incidently, aparently Republic Holdings started flying their first EMB-170 on Shuttle America's certificate (rather than Chautauqua or the uncertificated Republic Airline).
Shuttle America Launches Embraer 170 Scheduled Operations
Evidently, it was not the savior it was supposed to be.
Typical management, they hose thousands of employees to get the plane, the pilots and mechanics go way above and beyond to make this plane fly. It turns out that the passengers love the thing, it fills a hole for that size aircraft, U for the first time in history is leading the pack. So what do they do? SELL it so they can have their retention bonuses! OH sure a passenger can still ride on it, but U will be paying somebody else cost + 8%. And you will not have the tremendous efforts of the divisions employees breaking their backs doing their part to save the airline. Great job CCY
I still wonder, in the back of my head... if the pending combination isn't going to be more extensive.... like Wexford merging its operation into the new US entirely. Like there's another shoe to drop more extensive then just selling the aircraft for $50 something million whatever.
probably just hoping there's more to this than meets the eye.
probably just hoping there's more to this than meets the eye.
Republic CEO Brian Bedford made a presentation today at the Merrill Lynch Global Transportation Conference.
I believe Bedford indicated the transfer of US Airways' EMB-170s to Republic would likely start in the fall and continue through the first and second quarter of 2006. Republic expects to have 8 MDA aircraft on their property by the end of this year.
Bedford indicated he thinks that US Airways will exercise their right to require Republic to purchase the planes while US Airways is "still in Chapter 11."
Also noteworthy, Aviation Daily reported US Airways hopes to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection by the end of September and simultaneously consummate the merger with America West.
In regard to the MDA pilot transfer issue, it's my understanding the EMB-170 non-CEL pilots are considered "furloughed" US Airways pilots, but with all rights afforded them, thus this is not a Metrojet type of operation.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
I believe Bedford indicated the transfer of US Airways' EMB-170s to Republic would likely start in the fall and continue through the first and second quarter of 2006. Republic expects to have 8 MDA aircraft on their property by the end of this year.
Bedford indicated he thinks that US Airways will exercise their right to require Republic to purchase the planes while US Airways is "still in Chapter 11."
Also noteworthy, Aviation Daily reported US Airways hopes to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection by the end of September and simultaneously consummate the merger with America West.
In regard to the MDA pilot transfer issue, it's my understanding the EMB-170 non-CEL pilots are considered "furloughed" US Airways pilots, but with all rights afforded them, thus this is not a Metrojet type of operation.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
A320:
You and your ALPA buddies keep up the rhetoric about the MDA pilots being "furloughed".....this will only solidify their case in court. I won't go into the specifics because it has been discussed before, but these pilots are ACTIVE ALPA members who are being sold down the river.....for what the fifth time? The CEL pilots get their seniority for pay purposes and the reactivated U pilots start over?????WTH?
You had better make a 180 on this ASAP. The future of ALPA as a union in this country depends on it.
Boomer
You and your ALPA buddies keep up the rhetoric about the MDA pilots being "furloughed".....this will only solidify their case in court. I won't go into the specifics because it has been discussed before, but these pilots are ACTIVE ALPA members who are being sold down the river.....for what the fifth time? The CEL pilots get their seniority for pay purposes and the reactivated U pilots start over?????WTH?
You had better make a 180 on this ASAP. The future of ALPA as a union in this country depends on it.
Boomer
What would that then make the CEL pilots, they ARE listed on the APL list as active AAA?? Also, if the MDA pilots are furloughed (at least for you, the BOS FO rep, and the CLT FO rep), wouldn't you say collecting dues from them for the entire term of existance without even a probation year would then be extortion? If not how so? Is there any other ALPA Council which only represents a group of its pilots to a limited extent? Can you say "Duke vs. Spellacy".......
I think the MDA pilots are active AAA! I think by paying dues, paying assessments, voting as active members for LEC/MEC issues, holding MEC/LEC positions, flying under the AAA certificate, holding "active AAA" ALPA cards, being listed by ALPA National as "Active" and recalled for purposes of dues and assessments.
I would like to hear solid reasoning from you in regard to why MDA pilots are not active and how AAA can represent separately, members in good standing who fly different fleet types? In the eye's of the FAA, training department, management, and most who aren't on "pilot action", the Embraer 170 is just a fleet type and not its own intity.......
I think the MDA pilots are active AAA! I think by paying dues, paying assessments, voting as active members for LEC/MEC issues, holding MEC/LEC positions, flying under the AAA certificate, holding "active AAA" ALPA cards, being listed by ALPA National as "Active" and recalled for purposes of dues and assessments.
I would like to hear solid reasoning from you in regard to why MDA pilots are not active and how AAA can represent separately, members in good standing who fly different fleet types? In the eye's of the FAA, training department, management, and most who aren't on "pilot action", the Embraer 170 is just a fleet type and not its own intity.......
Hmm,
I am curious if that 8 mentioned (E-170's to be transferred over to Shuttle America/Republic) include the three that are sitting in Brazil right now.
Either way, that means the majority of MDA planes and people would still be on the property well after the merger was approved, and any "snapshot" taken.
It still does not realluy spell out what is going to happen with MDA anyways, it just pretty much said what everyone expected. With the deal structured the way it was, it was a no-brainer to predict that Republic would still purchase all/most of the E-170's.
What has been lacking is any real direction from the company on what would happen to the remainder of the order stream. Meaning the sale of the current E-170's might happen, but is that where the story ends...?
I am curious if that 8 mentioned (E-170's to be transferred over to Shuttle America/Republic) include the three that are sitting in Brazil right now.
Either way, that means the majority of MDA planes and people would still be on the property well after the merger was approved, and any "snapshot" taken.
It still does not realluy spell out what is going to happen with MDA anyways, it just pretty much said what everyone expected. With the deal structured the way it was, it was a no-brainer to predict that Republic would still purchase all/most of the E-170's.
What has been lacking is any real direction from the company on what would happen to the remainder of the order stream. Meaning the sale of the current E-170's might happen, but is that where the story ends...?
Continuing that though, I would think it foolish on the company's part to just "let MDA go"
IF the reason MDA was to be sold was a short term gain at long term expense, then would it be stupid not to revisit that decision...
I am not talking about the current fleet. The way the current deal was structured means that that sale was going to happen no matter what, but...
WTF would the new management want to allow the cheapest 70, and more importantly 90 seat operation to evaporate just because U was desparate a few months back...?
I mean really, why have someone else do all your 90 seat flying for you if you can do it 8% cheaper than they can...? Right now, as is, it is a turn-key operation, with most of the run-up costs already spent and people trained. The E-190 will begin deliveries in August to your competition. Instead of losing the lead you gained with MDA so far, you could extend it into the larger 90 seaters with their lower CASM's.
And costs aside, I will tell you one big reason for MidAtlantic's popularity with the passengers, yes they love the plane, but... MidAtlantic does not staff itself with Mesa flight attendants...
Instead they are Mainline F/A's delivering a far better product AT THE SAME OR CHEAPER RATES. Ditto for the flight crews and Mechanics...
So you are stuck having to sell the E-170's, WTF would you make the even bigger long term mistake of losing the huge concessionary victory for the company that MDA was, and could still be...?
Think about it, With jetBlue flying their own E-190's all over the East Coast, do you really want to sign away your only real competitive response...? (Please do not think a CRJ-900 is adequate repsonse to JB's E-190's, please)
Oh, and remember another thing, scope allows Republic to only fly 25 E-190's, that's it. If the Aircraft is as good as expected, do you want to be limted to that amount because you no longer have MDA...?
And one last item, out of bankruptcy, MDA pilots can be displaced, meaning that IF the company is smart enough to retain MDA is some fashion from here on, especially with 90 seater rates that are closer to what reserve F/O's at the rest of mainline make... That might really ease the labor issues involved with getting this merger approved, and the new company "right-sized" (with US and HP).
It is up to you Mr. Parker...
If you want to make this operation the best LCC, then do not let jetBlue be the only LCC with the cheap 90 seat flying while tying yourself to more costly affiliates...
IF the reason MDA was to be sold was a short term gain at long term expense, then would it be stupid not to revisit that decision...
I am not talking about the current fleet. The way the current deal was structured means that that sale was going to happen no matter what, but...
WTF would the new management want to allow the cheapest 70, and more importantly 90 seat operation to evaporate just because U was desparate a few months back...?
I mean really, why have someone else do all your 90 seat flying for you if you can do it 8% cheaper than they can...? Right now, as is, it is a turn-key operation, with most of the run-up costs already spent and people trained. The E-190 will begin deliveries in August to your competition. Instead of losing the lead you gained with MDA so far, you could extend it into the larger 90 seaters with their lower CASM's.
And costs aside, I will tell you one big reason for MidAtlantic's popularity with the passengers, yes they love the plane, but... MidAtlantic does not staff itself with Mesa flight attendants...
Instead they are Mainline F/A's delivering a far better product AT THE SAME OR CHEAPER RATES. Ditto for the flight crews and Mechanics...
So you are stuck having to sell the E-170's, WTF would you make the even bigger long term mistake of losing the huge concessionary victory for the company that MDA was, and could still be...?
Think about it, With jetBlue flying their own E-190's all over the East Coast, do you really want to sign away your only real competitive response...? (Please do not think a CRJ-900 is adequate repsonse to JB's E-190's, please)
Oh, and remember another thing, scope allows Republic to only fly 25 E-190's, that's it. If the Aircraft is as good as expected, do you want to be limted to that amount because you no longer have MDA...?
And one last item, out of bankruptcy, MDA pilots can be displaced, meaning that IF the company is smart enough to retain MDA is some fashion from here on, especially with 90 seater rates that are closer to what reserve F/O's at the rest of mainline make... That might really ease the labor issues involved with getting this merger approved, and the new company "right-sized" (with US and HP).
It is up to you Mr. Parker...
If you want to make this operation the best LCC, then do not let jetBlue be the only LCC with the cheap 90 seat flying while tying yourself to more costly affiliates...
CaptianBoomer:
Here's some of the problems with your thoughts.
The US Airways pilots flying at MDA are, by default, furloughed US Airways and not active mainline pilots. Do I like this? No, of course not, but that is what the attorney's have said. These pilots are furloughed.
Per the ALPA Restructuring Agreement, Attachment B, page 7 titled “MDA Job Opportunities†it clearly states, “All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots, followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List as defined in Attachment B-1, followed by new-hire pilots.â€
Thus, the only way a person can be a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from mainline, then hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots.
Now here is where it gets even murkier because in many ways MDA is not part of US Airways mainline. For example:,
-- Administratively MDA, not US Airways, handles payroll issues, sick, vacation, LTD, etc. internally with their own structure, not that of US Airways.
-- Contractually, the MDA pilots have a distinct separate working agreement. The only CBA exceptions are for Sections 1, 19, 20, 25 and the accelerated arbitration side letter. MDA scope gives MDA pilots the exclusive right to fly the EMB-170170/175 and as such keeps them and that flying separate from mainline pilots.
-- Item two above applies for bidding purposes.
-- Item two above covers pilot and aircraft segregation in regard to scope.
-- There is separate mainline and MDA pilot scheduling computer segregation,
-- MDA pilot paychecks come from MidAtlantic Airlines, 1000 Commerce Dr., Pittsburgh, PA 15275. MDA paychecks do not say that they come from “US Airwaysâ€. Active US Airways employees receive paychecks from US Airways ,2345 Crystal Dr., Arlington, VA 22227.
-- MDA has distinct and separate management and administrative structure from that of US Airways. MDA has its own hotel procurement, its own equivalent of Catcrew, it own dispatchers, its own schedulers, its own HR, etc. All personnel mentioned are under the employment of MidAtlantic, not US Airways.
However, for all those reasons that MDA is not US Airways it does have some cross functions such as pilot training records (beyond the MDA training clerk), regional directors of flying, and others.
-- The MDA chief pilot reports to US Airways Senior Director of Flying Lyle Hogg. The MDA Director of Training reports to the US Airways Director of Training for US Airways paul Morell.
-- The flights operations structure from Hogg and Morrell on up is common between the two carriers as is required by the FAA operating certificate.
-- MDA aircraft have “US Airways Express†painted on the side, but also have a trade mark by the door that says “MidAtlantic Airlines Operated by US Airways†(because of the operating certificate).
-- The MDA aircraft call sign is “US Air†just like the mainline, but their employee ID’s say “US Airways - MidAtlantic Airwaysâ€. The check airman ID says MidAtlantic Airways - US Airwaysâ€. Both ID’s also say: “If found return to US Airways Inc, Employee travel Dept, 2345 Crystal Dr, Arlington Va 22227.â€
Thus, attorney's believe MDA is clearly an asset of US Airways, Inc., as a division, because it does not have it's own FAA Part 121 Certificate. I regard to the question of "is it a wholly-owned or affiliate carrier?", it appears it is neither. It is a division of US Airways, Inc. As a division, it is a subsidiary of Inc., not a wholly owned or an affiliate.
Do I like this convoluted situation? No, of course not, but I understand the facts I listed above. Moreover, it appears the "phased" EMB-170 asset sale is proceeding per Brian Bedford's comments at the recent Merrill airline conference.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Here's some of the problems with your thoughts.
The US Airways pilots flying at MDA are, by default, furloughed US Airways and not active mainline pilots. Do I like this? No, of course not, but that is what the attorney's have said. These pilots are furloughed.
Per the ALPA Restructuring Agreement, Attachment B, page 7 titled “MDA Job Opportunities†it clearly states, “All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots, followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List as defined in Attachment B-1, followed by new-hire pilots.â€
Thus, the only way a person can be a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from mainline, then hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots.
Now here is where it gets even murkier because in many ways MDA is not part of US Airways mainline. For example:,
-- Administratively MDA, not US Airways, handles payroll issues, sick, vacation, LTD, etc. internally with their own structure, not that of US Airways.
-- Contractually, the MDA pilots have a distinct separate working agreement. The only CBA exceptions are for Sections 1, 19, 20, 25 and the accelerated arbitration side letter. MDA scope gives MDA pilots the exclusive right to fly the EMB-170170/175 and as such keeps them and that flying separate from mainline pilots.
-- Item two above applies for bidding purposes.
-- Item two above covers pilot and aircraft segregation in regard to scope.
-- There is separate mainline and MDA pilot scheduling computer segregation,
-- MDA pilot paychecks come from MidAtlantic Airlines, 1000 Commerce Dr., Pittsburgh, PA 15275. MDA paychecks do not say that they come from “US Airwaysâ€. Active US Airways employees receive paychecks from US Airways ,2345 Crystal Dr., Arlington, VA 22227.
-- MDA has distinct and separate management and administrative structure from that of US Airways. MDA has its own hotel procurement, its own equivalent of Catcrew, it own dispatchers, its own schedulers, its own HR, etc. All personnel mentioned are under the employment of MidAtlantic, not US Airways.
However, for all those reasons that MDA is not US Airways it does have some cross functions such as pilot training records (beyond the MDA training clerk), regional directors of flying, and others.
-- The MDA chief pilot reports to US Airways Senior Director of Flying Lyle Hogg. The MDA Director of Training reports to the US Airways Director of Training for US Airways paul Morell.
-- The flights operations structure from Hogg and Morrell on up is common between the two carriers as is required by the FAA operating certificate.
-- MDA aircraft have “US Airways Express†painted on the side, but also have a trade mark by the door that says “MidAtlantic Airlines Operated by US Airways†(because of the operating certificate).
-- The MDA aircraft call sign is “US Air†just like the mainline, but their employee ID’s say “US Airways - MidAtlantic Airwaysâ€. The check airman ID says MidAtlantic Airways - US Airwaysâ€. Both ID’s also say: “If found return to US Airways Inc, Employee travel Dept, 2345 Crystal Dr, Arlington Va 22227.â€
Thus, attorney's believe MDA is clearly an asset of US Airways, Inc., as a division, because it does not have it's own FAA Part 121 Certificate. I regard to the question of "is it a wholly-owned or affiliate carrier?", it appears it is neither. It is a division of US Airways, Inc. As a division, it is a subsidiary of Inc., not a wholly owned or an affiliate.
Do I like this convoluted situation? No, of course not, but I understand the facts I listed above. Moreover, it appears the "phased" EMB-170 asset sale is proceeding per Brian Bedford's comments at the recent Merrill airline conference.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
320, in light of your statements above It would seem you agree that the sale of the 170 to another contract carrier is indeed a change of control? Maybe you could share your thoughts with your associates on the mec. This really could save alot of headaches for the folks at the 170 division of US Airways (name per the ops manual).
Fr8tmastr:
The ALPA MEC, MDA pilots, and US Airways understands each point I listed above. They're not my thoughts, they're the facts, whether we like it or not.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
The ALPA MEC, MDA pilots, and US Airways understands each point I listed above. They're not my thoughts, they're the facts, whether we like it or not.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
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