How does flying for MAA affect recall rights? Can a MAA pilot end up being terminated from USAirways mainline seniority list because they have been gone too long?
Mda To Republic
- Thread starter Winglet
- Start date
luvn737s said:
No. If I'm correct, recall rights never expire.
At least with F/As, they keep travel benefits for life and recall with passing rights until all are required to come back. Previously F/As were required to give up recall if employed by another airline, but now they have changed it so you may seek outside aviation employment. If the new airline demands you resign US, you can send a letter and US will not honor it if you request.
If you are terminated from MAA you are terminated from US overall.
I agree that MDA pilots are on the US Airways pilot seniority list, just like other furloughed US Airways pilots who do not work at MDA. For example, some furloughed US Airways pilots are working at non-aviation jobs, attend post graduate school, or work at other J4J carriers, etc). Moreover, the Combined Eligibility List (CEL) pilots (CEL pilots came from Piedmont/Allegheny & PSA who had a right of hire to the MDA division subordinate to all furloughed US Airways mainline APL pilots working at MDA) have a seniority number at the mainline too, but it will not be activated until a later date.
The CEL seniority number will be activated once a CEL pilot can flow through to mainline, which will not occur until all furloughed mainline pilots have been recalled. It is my understanding that until CEL pilots flow through to mainline, they are MDA division and not mainline pilots.
Another important point in this discussion is that MDA non-CEL pilots are unfortunately furloughed from US Airways. Do I like this? No, of course not, but it’s reality.
Therefore, again per the ALPA contract and Restructuring Agreement, Attachment B, page 7 titled “MDA Job Opportunities†it clearly states, “All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots, followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List as defined in Attachment B-1, followed by new-hire pilots.â€
Thus, the only way a person can become a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from the mainline, hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off of the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots and is not a biddable position.
Meanwhile, some MDA pilots believe because they pay ALPA collected dues and assessments, just like every other ALPA pilot, they should be considered mainline pilots. However, again per the Constitution and By-laws, these pilots are represented as a matter of “class and craftâ€. To reiterate, MDA pilots are represented by the US Airways because both MDA and US Airways mainline pilots are part of the same “class and craft†covered by the US Airways chapter of ALPA per ALPA National, not USA320Pilot or US Airways ALPA, but ALPA National.
It is important to note that being a member of the US Airways Chapter of ALPA is not an indicator of a particular employer, but it is an indicator that a person works for either the mainline or MDA division. As such, all members are obligated to pay the appropriate dues and assessments per the constitution and by-laws.
Furthermore, per the contract if a mainline or MDA pilot does not pay their dues and assessments ALPA can seek to have the pilot terminated by US Airways.
I hope this clarifies the issues at hand.
Separately, I believe it’s in the best interests of the MDA pilots to stop threatening the US Airways ALPA MEC, which is the only entity that can help the MDA pilot group. Instead of fighting ALPA and its Constitution and By-laws, I believe it would be best to seek solutions to try to have all MDA pilots offered Republic jobs, if desired, versus threatening ALPA and possibly “burning a bridge†that most likely is the only realistic avenue for help. Moreover, the MDA pilots do not have the financial resources to take on ALPA National and Cowen, Weiss, and Simon and if a lawsuit proceeds, the MDA pilots could lose even more with large legal fees.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
The CEL seniority number will be activated once a CEL pilot can flow through to mainline, which will not occur until all furloughed mainline pilots have been recalled. It is my understanding that until CEL pilots flow through to mainline, they are MDA division and not mainline pilots.
Another important point in this discussion is that MDA non-CEL pilots are unfortunately furloughed from US Airways. Do I like this? No, of course not, but it’s reality.
Therefore, again per the ALPA contract and Restructuring Agreement, Attachment B, page 7 titled “MDA Job Opportunities†it clearly states, “All MDA positions will be filled first by US Airways pilots, followed next by pilots from the Participating Wholly-Owned Carriers on the Participating Wholly-Owned Carrier Pilot List as defined in Attachment B-1, followed by new-hire pilots.â€
Thus, the only way a person can become a MDA pilot is to be furloughed from the mainline, hired to MDA from a wholly owned carrier via the CEL list, or hired off of the street. MDA is not open to active US Airways pilots and is not a biddable position.
Meanwhile, some MDA pilots believe because they pay ALPA collected dues and assessments, just like every other ALPA pilot, they should be considered mainline pilots. However, again per the Constitution and By-laws, these pilots are represented as a matter of “class and craftâ€. To reiterate, MDA pilots are represented by the US Airways because both MDA and US Airways mainline pilots are part of the same “class and craft†covered by the US Airways chapter of ALPA per ALPA National, not USA320Pilot or US Airways ALPA, but ALPA National.
It is important to note that being a member of the US Airways Chapter of ALPA is not an indicator of a particular employer, but it is an indicator that a person works for either the mainline or MDA division. As such, all members are obligated to pay the appropriate dues and assessments per the constitution and by-laws.
Furthermore, per the contract if a mainline or MDA pilot does not pay their dues and assessments ALPA can seek to have the pilot terminated by US Airways.
I hope this clarifies the issues at hand.
Separately, I believe it’s in the best interests of the MDA pilots to stop threatening the US Airways ALPA MEC, which is the only entity that can help the MDA pilot group. Instead of fighting ALPA and its Constitution and By-laws, I believe it would be best to seek solutions to try to have all MDA pilots offered Republic jobs, if desired, versus threatening ALPA and possibly “burning a bridge†that most likely is the only realistic avenue for help. Moreover, the MDA pilots do not have the financial resources to take on ALPA National and Cowen, Weiss, and Simon and if a lawsuit proceeds, the MDA pilots could lose even more with large legal fees.
Best regards,
USA320Pilot
USA320Pilot said:
Oh come on. THe ID's also say EXP and your bithday month. Does that mean you work for EXP your birthday month? On the back it says US Airways Inc, which is the company. The F/A jumpseat card says US Airways Flight Attendant and thier seniority date. Furloughed F/As cannot jumpseat.
The F/as carry and are responsible for all aircraft in the US Airways Flight Attendant Manual. Same exact. An MAA and ML F/A could swop manuals, they are identical. The manual does not contain the word "MidAtlantic" even once, Only "EMB170/175" and "EMB170/175 flight attendants".
The schedulers are sitting in the same building as the rest of the schedulers. F/A crew sheduling is 1-800-xxx-0117- oh my god the same as mainline!- then press 6 for "the EMB OCC".
Payroll is handled by SSO who also does the wholly-owneds. There is a Pittsburgh adress on paychecks, but they are done in MDT. Isn't mainline's payroll and benefits outsourced too? Or does Lakefield do your pay while he's in your jumpseat?
Any seperate administration they have is them being silly. They do not work for "midAtlantic" as it doesn't exist.
Boarding passes, usairways.com, deparure monitors etc say US Airways as they use mainline flight numbers. Express carriers have designated flight numbers and are identified as US Airways Express and thier carrier name on the boarding pass as required by law.
What it says on the plane doesn't matter aside from what comes after "operated by"... US AIRWAYS. Plain and simple. They can write Express, MidAtlantic, Shuttle, Metrojet, or Big Ball of Poop on the side for all the FAA or the public cares... just as long as the truth is told by the door and in the reservations.
To see a fellow employee shoveling this #### is disgusting. To even use the word "MidAtlantic" is an isult yo your fellow employees who have sacrified MUCH more than you have to save this company. The division, even the imaginary one is bad enough but a sale is even worse for ALL mainline employees and they should be educated about it. The "convoluted" setup is from the mind of Jerry Glass, a champion union buster. Divide and conquer.
Don't be so stuck up your own senior and supposedly protected asses that you are thrown by an Express title on the side of the plane. Basically, the future equivalent of the 737s- the workhorse, bread and butter core of this short haul regional airline we all love- are being sold to another airline and you will all have no jobs. Unless maybe YOU apply for a position at a commuter under the 19 year old you just gave your entire domestic flying.
Three cheers for the 170 pilots for standing up to this vague peekaboo you are you aren't crap. It looks like the F/As are going to as well. Best of luck to all of them. Maybe someday you'll thank them for saving the last of "mainline" narrowbody flying.
USA320Pilot said:
Ok, well if it's not biddable, how come...
25 MAA positions were offered to ACTIVE mainline F/As in Fall 2004?
There are F/As that had the opportunity to return to mainline but stayed MAA, while junior MAA people went back. It was a choice. It's not a cut seniority list anymore by seniority. There are F/As at mainline who are junior to MAA F/As.
Furloughees could choose whether or not to come back . Every one has been reached, several times.
It's biddable, just not to everyone, aside from the 25 positions offered.
And again, NO ONE works for MidAtlantic Airways.
There is no company called MidAtlantic Airways.
There is no certificate for MidAtlantic Airways.
There is no MidAtlantic Airways.
As for the distinct structure babble, you could argue the same for the recently dissolved transatlantic division. They check in at seperate computers! THey can't work domestic! They wear name tags! They are not biddable unless you were alive for WWII! THey are TRANSATLANTIC AIRWAYS!!!!!
320:
Rest assure. that no EMB-170 crewmember gives a hoot what you believe our best interest are!
Rest assure. that no EMB-170 crewmember gives a hoot what you believe our best interest are!
USA320Pilot said:
I think it's insulting to even call them MidAtlantic. I know most of the flight attendants say "I'm in the 170 division" when talking to a "mainliner" just so maybe they'll find out what the 170 is and who operates them.
The pilot manuals also say absolutely nothing about MDA, the manual says US Airways 170/175. Why because there is no such thing as MDA. Like the previous poster said, this is just union busting tactics that have been the godsend of Group management for years.
320, Curious thing about the seniority numbers of division pilots. When the CEL pilots showed up to class they were given a warm "welcome to US Airways and congratulations on now being ML pilots" speach and a week later their ML seniority numbers were available right next to their names, and on their pay stubs. There is also a new updated list in the final stages of publication that carries no distinction between ML and CEL pilots at the division. That is unless the MEC is stalling on this for some "unknown" reason.
It is really sad that the representation at the division has been so poor (with the exception of a few) that the pilots would need to look for help elswhere. One would have to ask what on earth would make some of the MEC members so willing to turn a blind eye to this situation?
As far as burning bridges? what is that saying about "with friends like this"?
320, Curious thing about the seniority numbers of division pilots. When the CEL pilots showed up to class they were given a warm "welcome to US Airways and congratulations on now being ML pilots" speach and a week later their ML seniority numbers were available right next to their names, and on their pay stubs. There is also a new updated list in the final stages of publication that carries no distinction between ML and CEL pilots at the division. That is unless the MEC is stalling on this for some "unknown" reason.
It is really sad that the representation at the division has been so poor (with the exception of a few) that the pilots would need to look for help elswhere. One would have to ask what on earth would make some of the MEC members so willing to turn a blind eye to this situation?
As far as burning bridges? what is that saying about "with friends like this"?
Don’t “shoot the messenger†because everything I wrote is factual. From day one I lobbied to have MDA on the mainline as a biddable position, but it did not happen. If it had this discussion would not be happening.
Meanwhile, it appears US Airways could affirm its decision to sell the EMB-170s and other assets to Republic on or before June 23 and 8 aircraft could be transfeered this fall with 17 more gone in the fist 6 months of next year.
This is not the time for fighting, it's the time for solutions to the problems.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Meanwhile, it appears US Airways could affirm its decision to sell the EMB-170s and other assets to Republic on or before June 23 and 8 aircraft could be transfeered this fall with 17 more gone in the fist 6 months of next year.
This is not the time for fighting, it's the time for solutions to the problems.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
Yes, an MDA pilot can lose recall rights to mainline by quitting..... MDA is enough mainline that the MEC has allowed for this to happen. Also if a pilot retires early from mainline, he/she cannot then continue to work for MDA as they are one and the same.
SH
SH
2clippedwings
Veteran
Light Years said:There is no MidAtlantic Airways.
As for the distinct structure babble, you could argue the same for the recently dissolved transatlantic division. They check in at seperate computers! THey can't work domestic! They wear name tags! They are not biddable unless you were alive for WWII! THey are TRANSATLANTIC AIRWAYS!!!!!
[post="276406"][/post]
Good one!!
So what you are trying to tell us is that MDA pilots ARE active AAA piulots, but are not active "US Airways" pilots... Ahh, I see... Well, as it was pointed out, the ONLY people who are making that distinction is the AAA ALPA.
But that does not really matter, because...
The point is (and what the AAA MEC needs to acknowledge) is that there is no US Airways over here and MidAtlantic over there in terms of what is actually involved in this..., There is only one operational and organizational entity on our side that is actually being merged---> and that is US Airways Inc.
And that is where the AAA MEC is wrong about this. They are assuming that the merger involves only a snapshot of the current fleet of U Airbuses and Boeings ---> And the pilots that fly them. But that is not true.
The Snapshot must be of ALL of US Airways Inc, for it is THAT entity that is being merged, not just "the Mainline".
There is no separate "US Airways Mainline" corporation being merged with the pilot group of America West... What is being merged includes what you think of as "The Mainline"... AND ... What is refered to as "MidAtlantic".
You cannot leave our numbers out of the count because the so called "division" IS a full and active part of US Airways Inc.
Can a pilot be an active AAA pilot, and not be considered active at US Airways, INC...? Nope.
All other Subsidiaries of either US Airways Group or America West Holdings are not merging employee groups... Are they...? Only US Airways Inc and America West Inc. (Not PSA, PDT, SSO, or any other part of the two companies)
Thus...
This crap about "Me Mainline --- You Midatlantic" that Pollack and Jones are pushing is an waste of time and our Union's Money. As all of the fuss about "division" this, "recall" that is moot. They CANNOT argue that Midatlantic is not part of US Airways Inc, can they...?. Nor can they argue that it is not US Airways Inc as a whole that is going to be merged, canthey...?
As such, the organization that represents the pilots of US Airways Group (AAA ALPA) must count all those positions, at the time the snapshot is taken of the entity to be merged (and pilots they represent), listing (per ALPA merger policy) the number of Active Pilots at US Airways Inc, not just "US Airways".
There is no separate company, nor organization, nor certificate that you can separate the E-170 flying out from underneath the US Airways Inc. Thus The AAA MEC better wise up and start counting everyone, not just themselves (for whatever reasons they have failed to elaborate upon).
Game over.
But that does not really matter, because...
The point is (and what the AAA MEC needs to acknowledge) is that there is no US Airways over here and MidAtlantic over there in terms of what is actually involved in this..., There is only one operational and organizational entity on our side that is actually being merged---> and that is US Airways Inc.
And that is where the AAA MEC is wrong about this. They are assuming that the merger involves only a snapshot of the current fleet of U Airbuses and Boeings ---> And the pilots that fly them. But that is not true.
The Snapshot must be of ALL of US Airways Inc, for it is THAT entity that is being merged, not just "the Mainline".
There is no separate "US Airways Mainline" corporation being merged with the pilot group of America West... What is being merged includes what you think of as "The Mainline"... AND ... What is refered to as "MidAtlantic".
You cannot leave our numbers out of the count because the so called "division" IS a full and active part of US Airways Inc.
Can a pilot be an active AAA pilot, and not be considered active at US Airways, INC...? Nope.
All other Subsidiaries of either US Airways Group or America West Holdings are not merging employee groups... Are they...? Only US Airways Inc and America West Inc. (Not PSA, PDT, SSO, or any other part of the two companies)
Thus...
This crap about "Me Mainline --- You Midatlantic" that Pollack and Jones are pushing is an waste of time and our Union's Money. As all of the fuss about "division" this, "recall" that is moot. They CANNOT argue that Midatlantic is not part of US Airways Inc, can they...?. Nor can they argue that it is not US Airways Inc as a whole that is going to be merged, canthey...?
As such, the organization that represents the pilots of US Airways Group (AAA ALPA) must count all those positions, at the time the snapshot is taken of the entity to be merged (and pilots they represent), listing (per ALPA merger policy) the number of Active Pilots at US Airways Inc, not just "US Airways".
There is no separate company, nor organization, nor certificate that you can separate the E-170 flying out from underneath the US Airways Inc. Thus The AAA MEC better wise up and start counting everyone, not just themselves (for whatever reasons they have failed to elaborate upon).
Game over.
USA320Pilot said:
You're kidding right?
The solution to this mess is for all MDA pilots to be offered a job at Republic?
What MDA pilot would not be hired right now just by sending in a resume to Republic. Any low time flight instructor or commercial pilot in the country can get hired there with minimal time.
You think a job at Republic is a prize that anyone would fight for?
Forget about Republic. I'm sure they'll have to ramp up training when the MDA 170s get there, because not many pilots will be coming with the Aircraft.
MDA is a fleet type of US Airways, Inc. The pilots are ACTIVE US Airways' pilots. NOT Furloughed. The fleet positions were offered in seniority order to furloughed pilots. If you were not prepared to accept the recall to the lowest paying fleet type at US Airways, you could bypass that recall and maintain the right to recall when your seniority would allow recall to higher paying equipment. That is all.
Any earlier document that refers to MDA as a separate distinct operation is no longer relevant. It is NOT a J4J carrier as the code-a-phone trys so hard to imply. Like it or not, because MDA could not get it's own Certificate the Embraer Fleet became just another fleet type of US Airways, Inc. It may be a fenced operation with poorer working conditions and payscales, but it is US Airways. Consider it MetroJet with a fence.
Where it goes from here, who knows? But to pretend that MDA is anything other than US Airways and staffed by ACTIVE US Airways pilots is pure bullpoop.
jack mama
Senior
Didn't Comair pilots file a lawsuit against ALPA that they the same MEC couldn't fairly represent both groups??? Is that the same as this?
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