More,more You Can't Ever Give Enough

[Wretched Wrench]

but if you look at airline compensation over a much longer timespan, perhaps you'd see that its more in line with inflation once correct for the fact that airline employees were overpaid for most of the 60's and 70's.

Nope. My starting wage in the mid sixties was just over three dollah. That was NOT overpaid. What ever gave you that idea? I had friends who were garage mechanics and cooks who made more than I did. I even took a pay cut to work at AA.

 

[Hopeful]

Yep. I'll gladly provide them to you after I've submitted it as part of my MBA program. Wouldn't want anyone to think I stole my research off the internet...

Oh, we have a potential MBA man here to join the ranks of greedy management. That explains the anti worker position. It's ok for the upper management to make decent compensation, but not the lowly worker!

ModerAAtor, you automatically get your MBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRAVO, SIR!, BRAVO.

But, you're wasting your money getting this MBA. You don't need it!
All one has to do to manage and run a company is just LAYOFF EMPLOYEES, AND CUT THE REMAINING ONES' WAGES AND BENEFITS!

Maybe it's time to outsouce management!

 

[777 fixer]

The tax advantages of the 401 K dont mean jack if you need that lost income to pay your mortgage

If you think AArogant airlines is going to give you a pension when you retire you better take the early out

If you can't make your mortgage payment and have to decrease the amount you put into a 401K that means you have stretched yourself a bit to thin. One thing I learned when I got into this industry is aviod taking on expenses/debt to the point where you live pay check to pay check. I've seen co-workers go out and rack up the debt like there's no tommorow. And then I've watched them sweet bullets when the paycut comes around and the OT disappears.

And no I'm not expecting AA to give me a nice fat pension check. I operate under the assumption that oneday AA will dump it's pension plan and it will be only worth a fraction of what it was supposed to be. In addition I also assume that they will increase the age for social security. That's by I squirel away as much money as I can.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

If you can't make your mortgage payment and have to decrease the amount you put into a 401K that means you have stretched yourself a bit to thin.

I know a number of mechs who bought a house soon before the forced concessions. They had absolutely no way of knowing that they would lose pay, benefits and retirement prospects. They are really hurting now.

Most of us bought our house with the expectation (using history as our guide) that our pay would slowly increase, not be hacked.

 

[Skymess]

If you can't make your mortgage payment and have to decrease the amount you put into a 401K that means you have stretched yourself a bit to thin. One thing I learned when I got into this industry is aviod taking on expenses/debt to the point where you live pay check to pay check. I've seen co-workers go out and rack up the debt like there's no tommorow. And then I've watched them sweet bullets when the paycut comes around and the OT disappears.

And no I'm not expecting AA to give me a nice fat pension check. I operate under the assumption that oneday AA will dump it's pension plan and it will be only worth a fraction of what it was supposed to be. In addition I also assume that they will increase the age for social security. That's by I squirel away as much money as I can.

I'm with you. I still can't understand why people leverage themselves so much. FA's who HAD to work 100 hours with the old contract now HAVE to work 130 to make ends meet.

 

[Skymess]

I know a number of mechs who bought a house soon before the forced concessions. They had absolutely no way of knowing that they would lose pay, benefits and retirement prospects. They are really hurting now.

Most of us bought our house with the expectation (using history as our guide) that our pay would slowly increase, not be hacked.

The concept is kind of similar to when women buy clothing too tight because they are going to lose a few pounds in the future. You don't base your budget on what you will have, you base it on what you do have.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is asking for trouble.

That is precisely the reason why many FA's are working two schedules. They did their monthly budget on high time under the old schedule and didn't take into account that s*it happens and they could get sick, the company could go bust, or they could lose their income some other way.(like concessions)

 

[AMFAMAN]

If you can't make your mortgage payment and have to decrease the amount you put into a 401K that means you have stretched yourself a bit to thin.

That may be correct in Tulsa, DFW and other low cost areas, but your logic ends with NY, Bos, LA, SFO, and similar high cost cities. Not much you can do when the starter, handyman special home starts at $350k. I highly doubt anyone in those areas have much in a 401k.

And no I'm not expecting AA to give me a nice fat pension check. I operate under the assumption that oneday AA will dump it's pension plan and it will be only worth a fraction of what it was supposed to be.

This is typical of a sellout. You're already conceeding the pension without a fight. What about all the money you have given AA for this pension, afterall it is part of the contract and the compensation package. You could have been making $5 or so more an hour over the years instead of the having them put the money into the pension. You're not expecting it, no you should be demanding it.

 

[MCI transplant]

That may be correct in Tulsa, DFW and other low cost areas, but your logic ends with NY, Bos, LA, SFO, and similar high cost cities. Not much you can do when the starter, handyman special home starts at $350k. I highly doubt anyone in those areas have much in a 401k.
This is typical of a sellout. You're already conceeding the pension without a fight. What about all the money you have given AA for this pension, afterall it is part of the contract and the compensation package. You could have been making $5 or so more an hour over the years instead of the having them put the money into the pension. You're not expecting it, no you should be demanding it.

<_< AMFA---- I'm not trying to sell your arguements short, but the fact that a home in NY, Bos, LA, or SFO start at $350K only holds true if you are transfuring in from somewhere else, or trying to buy, and never owned a house there! If you already own one, then the house your currently living in is worth at least that amount! So when you retire, you can cash out and move to TULSA, Kansas City, Dallas, and use that money as an additional source of retirement income!!!! I know! Been there, done that!!! Although in my case it was forced on me, and am not quit retired yet!!!! I know! I know! What if you don't want to do that??? Well! That's your choose, now isn't it!!!!!

 

[Garfield1966]

I know a number of mechs who bought a house soon before the forced concessions. They had absolutely no way of knowing that they would lose pay, benefits and retirement prospects. They are really hurting now.

Most of us bought our house with the expectation (using history as our guide) that our pay would slowly increase, not be hacked.

You really ought to read your history books more carefully. History is cyclical. No empire has lasted for ever. Pan-AM and Eastern are gone. Come back 100 years from now and people will probably be asking "WN who?". The American Auto industry is in shambles. The US electronic industry is ... well .... have you tried to buy any electronics that were made in the US? If there are people out there who thought that the growth of the 80's and 90's would not come to screeching halt they really need to buy a vowel. By the way, Turkish, Ottoman and Roman empires are gone also ... just a FYI.

I bought my house in '97 and it was well below what I could have afforded at the time. Just seemed like common sense to me. With in 5 years there were about 10-15 houses that were in foreclosure in my neighborhood. I asked one of the folks and they said they did not think they would have to take pay cuts and they did not take into account property tax increases with the value of their house. He said the bank qualified them for $XXX and that’s what he bought. I so wanted to ask why he bough the max but figured he already felt like an ass and asking that would only satisfy my morbid curiosity. I got a mailing from the AA credit Union the other days saying I qualified for a car loan. I damn near fell over when I saw the amount that they qualified me for. It was more then my yearly salary (but hey, it was at a good interest rate). I guess there is a sucked born every minute.

 

[AMFAMAN]

<_< AMFA---- I'm not trying to sell your arguements short, but the fact that a home in NY, Bos, LA, or SFO start at $350K only holds true if you are transfuring in from somewhere else, or trying to buy, and never owned a house there! If you already own one, then the house your currently living in is worth at least that amount!

The house is worth more but now you can't afford the taxes on it. Also, you do have a younger crowd among the non-TWAers(not an age joke-just fact ) that will never be able to afford a house because the cost of living difference between the high cost cities and what the majority of Tulsa deems okay fo us to live on.

 

[MCI transplant]

The house is worth more but now you can't afford the taxes on it. Also, you do have a younger crowd among the non-TWAers(not an age joke-just fact ) that will never be able to afford a house because the cost of living difference between the high cost cities and what the majority of Tulsa deems okay fo us to live on.

<_< Hey! No offence taken!!! Us ex-TWAers are proud of our mileage!!!! But my point stands! If you have a home in those cities, they are worth big bucks! Can't afford taxes! Cash out and move to Tulsa!!!! Don't want to do that? Get a second job! that's how I got my family through 10 years of a pay freeze with TWA!!! Hey! I'm not saying it's fair! But who said life was fair?? As for the younger worker, your right on there! There will come a time when the younger worker will not be able to afford to work for american, or any other airline in those cities!! TWA (IAM) had a cost of living clause for our employees in HNL in one of our old contracts that did exactly what your sugesting!!But remmber what this is all about! "Company Taking!!", not "Giving!" :down:

 

[777 fixer]

That may be correct in Tulsa, DFW and other low cost areas, but your logic ends with NY, Bos, LA, SFO, and similar high cost cities. Not much you can do when the starter, handyman special home starts at $350k. I highly doubt anyone in those areas have much in a 401k.
This is typical of a sellout. You're already conceeding the pension without a fight. What about all the money you have given AA for this pension, afterall it is part of the contract and the compensation package. You could have been making $5 or so more an hour over the years instead of the having them put the money into the pension. You're not expecting it, no you should be demanding it.

And this is typical of anyone who disagrees with people like AMFAMAN. If you disagree with them they call you a sellout. Well if I'm a "sellout" then I guess that makes AMFAMAN a fool. One only needs to look at the history of the airline industry. The guys at Eastern fought hard and look what happened none the less. A "retirement" that's bascially a joke. That's why IMHO you are doing a diservice not only to yourself but your family if you don't plan for a worst case scenario. One has to wonder how many ex-Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff etc folks out there wish they had planed for such an event.

As for housing in areas like LAX, SFO, BOS, JFK the compnay could double your pay and unless you have a big chunk of change it still would not be enoguh to be able to buy a single family home.

 

[MCI transplant]

And this is typical of anyone who disagrees with people like AMFAMAN. If you disagree with them they call you a sellout. Well if I'm a "sellout" then I guess that makes AMFAMAN a fool. One only needs to look at the history of the airline industry. The guys at Eastern fought hard and look what happened none the less. A "retirement" that's bascially a joke. That's why IMHO you are doing a diservice not only to yourself but your family if you don't plan for a worst case scenario. One has to wonder how many ex-Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff etc folks out there wish they had planed for such an event.

As for housing in areas like LAX, SFO, BOS, JFK the compnay could double your pay and unless you have a big chunk of change it still would not be enoguh to be able to buy a single family home.

<_< 777---It's one thing to be prepaired for the worst! Quit another to roll over every time the company, and ,or Union, says it needs you and your family to take another cut in their life style! I don't see Arpy' or Little doing that! So who's the fool???? Rember! Lose or not, they "admit to" $3.2 Billion in cash reserves!!!

 

[777 fixer]

<_< 777---It's one thing to be prepaired for the worst! Quit another to roll over every time the company, and ,or Union, says it needs you and your family to take another cut in their life style! I don't see Arpy' or Little doing that! So who's the fool???? Rember! Lose or not, they "admit to" $3.2 Billion in cash reserves!!!

Amazing, when one says they prepare for the worst there called a "sellout" or of "rolling over". I have very little faith in the TWU looking out for my best interest. Afterall Jim Little and all the other TWU higher ups have had their pay go up the past four years so why should they care. I also know that when push come to shove AMR will look after their shareholders with us coming in second. Then what was supposed to be the cure to all our ailments, AMFA, has come up a bit short. So I apologize to everyone if I plan my life around worst case scenarios. Becasue when it comes right down to it the company, TWU or anybody else is not going to do it for me. By the way MCI do you put money aside for a rainy day?

 

[MCI transplant]

Amazing, when one says they prepare for the worst there called a "sellout" or of "rolling over". I have very little faith in the TWU looking out for my best interest. Afterall Jim Little and all the other TWU higher ups have had their pay go up the past four years so why should they care. I also know that when push come to shove AMR will look after their shareholders with us coming in second. Then what was supposed to be the cure to all our ailments, AMFA, has come up a bit short. So I apologize to everyone if I plan my life around worst case scenarios. Becasue when it comes right down to it the company, TWU or anybody else is not going to do it for me. By the way MCI do you put money aside for a rainy day?

<_< Do I put money aside? I'm putting over 25% of my pay aside! But then again I'm saving for my retirement also! Not that I expect a whole lot from american! Our aa retirement started a year after the buyout.So if our retirement holds? I'll have four, or five years behind me!!! As for not having much fath in the system! I can relate to that, but what should we all do? Give up! Stick our head in the sand? If something comes down that you really don't like, let people know about it!!! You may find others who agree, and at least #### a little!!! You never know, maybe someone will hear you that can do something about it!!!