MORE NO SHOWS FOR PILOTS

[SegmentKing]

OMG please just keep quiet because you obviously don't know you airline history. Long before the 80's UAL purchase of Pan American pacific routes Pan Am (USAIR) mergerd with a company called National (AWA). Pan Am was every bit the nasty aholes that some in the east are being now!! They treated the National people like dirt and felt that the world owed them everything. Well they needed Natioanl BAD!! as their route structure helped Pan Am at a time when they were losing everything...

AWA, I'm talking about asset purchases, which are a way around a merger.

I know for a FACT that when United Air Lines bought assets of Pan Am, the Orient operations, London Heathrow, and even South America, that part of the deal included the employees were to be brought over and slotted in with their seniority. I know of a few pilots (just retired actually) and some flight attendants (still flying) who have a HIRE date of 1985, but their DOH for seniority is their Pan Am date.

I know that Pan Am & National was a nasty merger, but lets also note that many outsiders feel the purchase of National is part of the downfall of Pan Am.

This stuff is really nasty, and it sucks because I know people on both sides of the fence... some of my closest friends at Great Lakes backin the '90s are now flying Cacti Airbii, and my 2 years at USAirways allowed me to meet many, many employees across the system.... I was optimistic when this merger was announced because to me, it worked. I thought this company was going to take the BEST OF BOTH and combine them, but unfortunately all I'm seeing is the WORST of EACH.

:/

 

[Phoenix]

I'm one of those "apprentices".

My name appears on the 7/91 PAA seniority list. I guess I didn't learn anything in the intervening 15 years and 3 majors.

Can you guess how many fingers I'm holding up?

50N30W

Carefull.. you are looking real "sore". In fact it appears to be eating you up.

 

[Phoenix]

the enormous East pilot resolve because the vast majority support the MEC 110%.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

OK. News flash. I am not part of your "vast majority". I have every confidence that ALPA at every level is slow rolling the AAA pilots. Sign a card or repeat history.http://www.decertifyALPA.org

 

[N924PS]

Callsign,

The US Airways pilots believe they are economically better off by preventing the Nicolau Award from being implemented and living under LOA 93 than having a new contract and having the Nicolau Award passed on to the Company. The East attrition is so large that the advancements and improved qaulity of life outweigh the benefits of a new contract.

In all seriousness, that is what I believe the AWA MEC and the AWA pilots need not recognize. Furthermore, there is no doubt in my mind this feeling will never change in the minds of the East pilots.

If the West pilots want to get a new contract and get beyond the pilot problems then they need to understand the enormous East pilot resolve because the vast majority support the MEC 110%.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You need to rephrase.

Not all USAirways pilots believe they are economically better off by preventing the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

In fact, each and every USAirways/America West pilot is losing money every day by the delaying a Joint Contract.

East attrition is not causing major advancements or quality of life improvements for many East pilots at all. Just a few a month. As the West pilots accurately portray, much of the Age 60 attrition is from the East First Officer ranks. There will be no Permenant Base Bid's until at least November.

Having said that, the pilots that will be foregoing raises above the abysmal LOA93 rates, gaining additional vacation days, and enhancing their quality of life are in support of the East MEC's stand on the Nicolau Award. Many have submitted cards for a change of representation.

It's a shame that the merger has turned into such a train wreck in every way. But while East and West pilots and every employee are stuck in a financial time warp, the elite Senior Management team is pocketing millions on the backs of those employees. And laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[A320 Driver]

You need to rephrase.

Not all USAirways pilots believe they are economically better off by preventing the Nicolau Award from being implemented.

In fact, each and every USAirways/America West pilot is losing money every day by the delaying a Joint Contract.

East attrition is not causing major advancements or quality of life improvements for many East pilots at all. Just a few a month. As the West pilots accurately portray, much of the Age 60 attrition is from the East First Officer ranks. There will be no Permenant Base Bid's until at least November.

Having said that, the pilots that will be foregoing raises above the abysmal LOA93 rates, gaining additional vacation days, and enhancing their quality of life are in support of the East MEC's stand on the Nicolau Award. Many have submitted cards for a change of representation.

It's a shame that the merger has turned into such a train wreck in every way. But while East and West pilots and every employee are stuck in a financial time warp, the elite Senior Management team is pocketing millions on the backs of those employees. And laughing all the way to the bank.

So what do you suggest? Suck it up and take one for the team? I don't think that will happen. West pilots are stuck just as much as the East pilots with the contract they have unless they pursue the option to abandon the JNC talks and move to Section 6 negotiations. If West thinks they can starve the East guys into voting for any contract that implements the Nic award, they are sorely mistaken. No amount of brow beating (especially on this board) will change this reality. Likewise, any East pilot suggesting that we take the money and accept the Nic award is validating every statement made by more junior East pilots that greed has thrown them under the bus...again! For once, we have to look beyond our own pockets.


A320 Driver B)

 

[aquagreen73s]

It's not an issue of West guys believing they can starve the East into submission, rather the issue is ALPA National growing tired of the East and deciding to shove a contract down our collective throats in the interest of UAL, NWA and DAL contract negotiations. Don't think that National can do that? Think again. If not National, then the company is certainly a factor for the East.

 

[A320 Driver]

It's not an issue of West guys believing they can starve the East into submission, rather the issue is ALPA National growing tired of the East and deciding to shove a contract down our collective throats in the interest of UAL, NWA and DAL contract negotiations. Don't think that National can do that? Think again. If not National, then the company is certainly a factor for the East.

aquagreen73

You could be right. There have been so many twists and turns in this mess, anything could happen, but I still don't think they could do a cram down without a vote.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way you do. You negotiated, you arbitrated, you won. But I'm not, and this award is a bitter pill for the mistakes made by our representitves. Stupidity has been mistaken for courage. The right thing, the smart thing and certainly the courageous thing to do would have been to craft an integration propopsal consistant with the current ALPA merger policy. I don't believe we did that, but at the same time, I don't believe Nic did either. What we ended up with was a punitive award for our stubborness.

That being said, I still can't think of one scenerio that would remedy this calamity in a manner satisfactory to both sides. It'll take a smarter man than me to do that.

A320 Driver B)

 

[CaptainZitface]

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way you do. You negotiated, you arbitrated, you won. But I'm not, and this award is a bitter pill for the mistakes made by our representitves. Stupidity has been mistaken for courage. The right thing, the smart thing and certainly the courageous thing to do would have been to craft an integration propopsal consistant with the current ALPA merger policy. I don't believe we did that, but at the same time, I don't believe Nic did either. What we ended up with was a punitive award for our stubborness.

That being said, I still can't think of one scenerio that would remedy this calamity in a manner satisfactory to both sides. It'll take a smarter man than me to do that.

A320 Driver B)

Wow, somebody pinch me. I actually agree with most of that. 😱

 

[EastUS]

I never said anything about taking a break you did!! I knew the game before I got in it and if I had 15 or 20 yrs it really wouldn't matter

"and if I had 15 or 20 yrs it really wouldn't matter"

That's hard to reasonably say for yourself AWA320...15-20 years might eventually afford you some "Clue"...IF you ever get that far

"and if I had 15 or 20 yrs"

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the crux of the St Nic problem.

 

[nycbusdriver]

History has proven time and again that AAA pilots will sell out their junior for an extra packet of mustard in their crew meal. History will repeat itself. Always does.

History is just that. History.

If that were the case today, you would find little support among the east senior pilots for hanging on to the LOA 93 working conditions in order to make Nicolau moot. But just the opposite is happening. In this case, the senior pilots are marching lockstep with the junior (relatively speaking) east pilots to protect their upgrades. This is done to their own financial detriment, which the westies always love to point out.

The westies are dumbfounded that the senior east pilots are not going for the money grab this time, but have chosen to protect ALL of their own.

 

[flyin2low]

OMG please just keep quiet because you obviously don't know you airline history. Long before the 80's UAL purchase of Pan American pacific routes Pan Am (USAIR) mergerd with a company called National (AWA). Pan Am was every bit the nasty aholes that some in the east are being now!! They treated the National people like dirt and felt that the world owed them everything. Well they needed Natioanl BAD!! as their route structure helped Pan Am at a time when they were losing everything...

Ummm..... Where is PAA today?

 

[aquagreen73s]

aquagreen73

What we ended up with was a punitive award for our stubborness. That being said, I still can't think of one scenerio that would remedy this calamity in a manner satisfactory to both sides. It'll take a smarter man than me to do that.

A320 Driver B)

There is a rudimentary maxim in law that it's best not to piss off the judge or the jury. The PHL LEC went out of their way to do just that. Congratulations Jabba and gang. The PHL LEC should literally be locked in a basement and not allowed to see the light of day because it is they who are most responsible for the Nic architecture. Now here we are three months later and the same morons seem to be driving the East pilots into another whopping, dead-end strategy of alienating all AWA pilots as well as all ALPA pilots. Nothing productive will ever result until the three amigos are gone.

 

[Pi brat]

aquagreen73

You could be right. There have been so many twists and turns in this mess, anything could happen, but I still don't think they could do a cram down without a vote.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way you do. You negotiated, you arbitrated, you won. But I'm not, and this award is a bitter pill for the mistakes made by our representitves. Stupidity has been mistaken for courage. The right thing, the smart thing and certainly the courageous thing to do would have been to craft an integration propopsal consistant with the current ALPA merger policy. I don't believe we did that, but at the same time, I don't believe Nic did either. What we ended up with was a punitive award for our stubborness.

That being said, I still can't think of one scenerio that would remedy this calamity in a manner satisfactory to both sides. It'll take a smarter man than me to do that.

A320 Driver B)

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I believe you left something out. AWAs proposal to NIC was no closer to fair or reasonable than USA's. It would have slotted my best friend, hired in 1987, at about 65-70% relative postion, behind ALL AWA pilots. Please, anyone, tell me that was fair or reasonable. Now, maybe in they offered much better in negotiations, but that really doesn't matter as we could not come to agreement.

I actually thought the list would come out variable slotted, from top to bottom, with Save-a-Dave being put in right behind our '89 furloughed guys. Plus I thought the fences would be in PHX and LAS to protect the Senior AWA guys, and the senior F/O's about to check out, from senior east guys wanting to go west.

Nic handed us a mess. With just a little adjustment I don't think you would have the uproar you have now and we would all be moving forward.

One last thing. It may be just words, but in my 20+ years I have never heard the senior pilots be so supportive of something that does not help them at all.

 

[Pi brat]

As I have stated before, I am concerned the award does not have fences to protect PHX and LAS bases. By doing a joint in-depth analysis and presenting the results to the pilot group might help ease some of the concerns about "career expectation" and/or help facilitate a mutually acceptable solution.

I'm surpirised I haven't heard this from more of the west guys. I think there are more east guys that want to go west than most guys think. Also, there are a few guys hired in 98-99 on the national ALPA board whinning about the delay in getting the award forwarded. I wonder if they stop think that if they want to upgrade the delay is the best thing that could of happened to them. I don't think any of those 49 new west C/O positions would be going to them if this thing was done. Right 924PS?

 

[Pi brat]

Nic sends his best Pi!! Are you below Dave as well is that why you have been so sore??

You been meeting with him scooter? Got something going on there? Hope that works out for ya. Nope, Save-a-Dave is way junior to me, but I will be nice to him when he is my F/O. You never answered my question. What is your DOH, within 6 months or so, so you don't identify yourself. I'm somewhere between summer '85 and summer '87.